Jennifer Tracy: It gave me ... which I think is translated into my podcast and just my work, of like, goddammit, we're all just doing the best we can. You know? You never know what the other person's dealing with.
Speaker 2: You're listening to the MILF Podcast. This is the show where we talk about motherhood and sexuality with amazing women with fascinating stories to share on the joys of being a MILF. Now, here's your host, the MILF-iest MILF I know, Jennifer Tracey.
Jennifer Tracy: Hey, guys. Welcome back to the show. This is MILF Podcast, the show where we talk about motherhood, entrepreneurship, sexuality, and everything in between. I'm your host, Jennifer Tracy. That was just a clip of me talking, and it's so weird. I am the guest of my own show this week, you guys. The beautiful, lovely, and talented Jackie MacDougall, host of Forty Thrive Podcast, and I have done a pod swap today. So, she's interviewing me on my show, and I interviewed her on her show, which is out today. So, if you want to hear both sides of the interview, then you got to Forty Thrive and listen to me interviewing her MILF style on her podcast, and she's interviewing me Forty Thrive style on my podcast. It was really fun. We did both interviews in one day in my bedroom. I think we ate a whole board of cheese. I ate most of it. She didn't eat very much. I love cheese and bread. I do. I love it. I can't help it. We had some tea, and we just went for it. I think we took about four hours to do the whole thing, and it was so much fun.
Jennifer Tracy: But I have to say listening to the playback for the editing process I was very self-conscious about it, because, you know, it's different. I share a lot of stuff on the show about myself, but it's different when I'm interviewing somebody else, because the topic always keeps going back to them, interviewing them. So, this one is pretty vulnerable, and I talk about my recovery. Yeah. Anyway, I really hope you guys enjoy it. Go on over to Forty Thrive and check out my interview with Jackie as well, so you get a little bit of her side of things, but I'm sure you'll enjoy her interview of me. She's such a good interviewer.
Jennifer Tracy: A couple of points of business real quick. First of all, hi. This is episode 50. You guys, this is episode 50. Oh my gosh. How did I get to episode 50? Yeah. I'm very proud of the MILF Podcast and the team of MILF podcast. This is kind of a big deal. We're coming up on one year that I've been doing this now, so lots of celebrating that's going to be happening. I just had a birthday. I just turned 44 on Monday. Yeah. June 3rd is my birthday. I'm a Gemini. I'm 44 now. I feel like I have to buckle down and get serious. Just kidding. Never going to happen.
Jennifer Tracy: So, this month's give, I've chosen the organization FamiliesBelongTogether.org. I came to them through the Phenomenal Mother Campaign, which you may have seen me posting about on Instagram. I found them through June Diane, beautiful June Diane, the actress, who's in Grace and Frankie. She's been in a bunch of stuff, but she's currently in Grace and Frankie on Netflix, and she was in that movie that just came out with Charlize Theron and Seth Rogan called the Long Shot. Anyway, she's an activist and actress, and she's really fricking badass. I found this through her. What they're about is ... I'll just read this to you.
Jennifer Tracy: "We're a coalition of over 250 organizations that represent Americans from all backgrounds who joined together, because we believe in dignity, unity, compassion, and love for all children and families. We want to end family separation and detention, and we won't rest until every family is reunited." You can check them out. There already is a link on my website under my giving page. You can donate to them directly at FamiliesBelongTogether.org, or you can write a review for MILF Podcast, and I will donate in your honor $25 per iTunes review written for MILF Podcast in the month of June. So, that's the give.
Jennifer Tracy: Our live show's coming up end of July, July 24, 2019, which is a Wednesday night, at 8:00 PM at the Dynasty Typewriter in Los Angeles. We are doing a live podcast event. So, what that means is you go online right now, and you buy your ticket, because I don't think there will probably be any available the night of. You can wait and try and see, but you might get turned away. I'm just saying. It's going to be a live event. Obviously I'm hosting it. There's going to be a little bit of pole dancing happening. There's going to be four guests with me on the stage talking about sex after kids and just sex in general. It's going to be a really fun night. I'm cooking up some fun stuff for you. So, please come to that. I'm super excited about it. Yeah. Anyway, I'm going to stop stalling, because I'm realizing that's what I'm doing. This week's episode, episode 50 of MILF Podcast, which is the beautiful, lovely, and talented Jackie MacDougall interviewing me. I hope you enjoy.
Jackie M: Welcome to the MILF Podcast. I can't do it. You, and that voice, and that MILF-y MILF MILF stuff. I'm sorry, but there's no MILF-y, awesome, sexy voice today. It's all this shit happening.
Jennifer Tracy: You are wrong, my friend. You are all MILF, all day long.
Jackie M: Yes. Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. You are.
Jackie M: All right.
Jennifer Tracy: Jackie MacDougall.
Jackie M: I don't mean to take over your show, but, girl, this is my MILF-y MILF Show today.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. It is. Yes. It is. Yes. It is.
Jackie M: I am so excited. I listen to you in the car. Sometimes I feel like we're best friends, and you just don't know it yet.
Jennifer Tracy: I feel it.
Jackie M: Don't you?
Jennifer Tracy: I totally feel it.
Jackie M: I don't think I've ever recorded a podcast episode where I am so comfortable. We're in your bedroom for crying out loud.
Jennifer Tracy: I know.
Jackie M: With Slash, your little dog.
Jennifer Tracy: My little guy sleeping on the big, giant pillow. I've never recorded in my bedroom wither, so this is-
Jackie M: Wow.
Jennifer Tracy: We're [devirginizing 00:06:22] the podcast of the bedroom.
Jackie M: Seriously. Wow. This is sexy.
Jennifer Tracy: It is. It is.
Jackie M: I have to come back down to your ... One of the reasons I love your podcast so much is your energy, because when I have chaos and I want to just kind of be with my girlfriends, but I don't have time to be with my girlfriends, I can listen to your podcast. So, I got to bring my energy down to where your cool vibe is.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm cool? I have a cool vibe?
Jackie M: You have a cool vibe.
Jennifer Tracy: I think I'm such a dork.
Jackie M: You do?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yeah. I'm very nerdy.
Jackie M: So, can I ask you anything?
Jennifer Tracy: Anything you want.
Jackie M: All right. We'll start easy. I'll throw you some underhanded, easy ones to hit. Where did you learn how to I don't even want to say interview, because it doesn't sound like an interview? I've asked you before we even got started like do you know all these people? Have you slept with all these people you have on? Because the intimacy and the ability to just-
Jennifer Tracy: I have orally pleasured every woman who has been on the show.
Jackie M: How is that not in your show open? Mothers I'd like to fellatio or, I don't know. We're going to get to that too, because I think a lot of people think they know what MILF is, but you don't spell it out every week.
Jennifer Tracy: They don't know.
Jackie M: Anyway, let's get back to the original question. How did you learn how to have these conversations and pull out the most comfortable, easy breezy, but yet intimate and revealing conversations with these people?
Jennifer Tracy: The short answer is I don't know. The slightly longer answer is when I was in my twenties, I found a tiny, little improv studio theater right by my house, and I started studying improvisation. I did a conservatory length study of it. What that did, in a different way than like my Meisner ... Did you ever take Meisner acting class?
Jackie M: Now, see, you're much too smart for me.
Jennifer Tracy: No. No. No. No. I was an unemployed actress for a gazillion years.
Jackie M: My most acting I've ever done is like me with a brush talking into a microphone like I was being interviewed, you know. That's as much. I was winning Oscars in my imagination, but I was never acting.
Jennifer Tracy: That's all you need. That's so much better than the real thing, let me assure you. I took Meisner when I first moved out here to LA. Meisner technique is basically where you start with repetition. So, we'll give an example. We just kind of repeat it back to each other. You can say something to me, and I'll repeat it back to you, or I'll comment on how you're feeling or what I think you're thinking. Let's just give it a whirl and we'll see. You just follow my lead. You start by saying something to me. It could be anything like, "It's sunny today."
Jackie M: Your dog on the pillows behind you is the cutest thing I've ever seen.
Jennifer Tracy: You're totally a dog person.
Jackie M: I have three dogs. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: You seem uncertain right now.
Jackie M: It's funny, because I grew up not a dog person. I have 12 siblings, and my dad used to say, "I have kids. I don't need dogs." You know? Which is funny, because he's not Jewish or from New York, but I just made him both. Oh. I don't have the-
Jennifer Tracy: So, I didn't do that right, because I didn't explain it first, but basically when I was saying, "You seem uncertain right now," that was in the context of the exercise.
Jackie M: I see. Okay. No. I was actually amazed. I was actually amazed already, because I commented on your dog, and then you're pulling stuff out of me that pretty much are the things that make me tick or things that make me me, as opposed to, "It's sunny out," or, "Your dog's cute," but all of a sudden I'm like, I want to tell you everything.
Jennifer Tracy: You're looking below the ... Yeah. It started with Meisner and then with improv, which is another beautiful art form of deeply listening to your other actors who are on the stage with you. That's how you get to the truth of what's happening, and that's how you get to the comedy of what's happening, because once you get to the truth, that's when the really funny thing is, because ... Anyway, without getting on a whole thing of that, but I think that that's where that was birthed. Then Sabrina Hill Weisz and I did sketch comedy for years. For like seven years we performed all over LA, at Bang Theater, but all over LA, comedy festivals. I was nine months pregnant doing our last comedy festival. So, we wrote sketch. We wrote tons of sketch, and that also requires just sort of a nuanced listening. So, I don't really know. I mean, maybe that's part of the training that prepared me for his. I'm a writer, and so I'm just innately curious, and I love people. I grew up as an only child, alone in my basement all the time.
Jackie M: That sounds amazing.
Jennifer Tracy: Says Jackie, one of 13 children. That's hysterical. I was lonely all the time. At that time I was like, "Oh. If only I had a big family Von Trapp experience."
Jackie M: Oh, yes. We made dresses out of curtains.
Jennifer Tracy: Out of curtains?
Jackie M: Yes. I was 16 going on 17. Yeah. The funniest part though is that my mom ... Well, this is really not funny, but my mom died when I was three. I was the youngest of 11. And my dad got remarried to a former nun. So, it's funny that you made the Von Trapp-
Jennifer Tracy: No way.
Jackie M: ... reference.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my god. I didn't know that.
Jackie M: Yeah. I thought at first that it was like, "Oh. I Must have told her that."
Jennifer Tracy: That's so funny. No. I didn't.
Jackie M: It's it funny. And her name was Mary, instead of Maria.
Jennifer Tracy: No.
Jackie M: Yes. It's all coming together.
Jennifer Tracy: That's crazy.
Jackie M: Yes. But back to you. But I just noticed that, and this is one of the things that I tell other people who are thinking about getting into podcasting is, the best podcasters are great listeners. It's not all about being able to talk. Yes, but you have to hear. My background's daytime TV that I used to do promotion and this and that. There were certain interviewers that I will not mention that would have their cue cards, and they would ask a question like, "What happened when you went to the store that night?", and he's like, "Well, I fell on a piece of ice, and broke my leg, and cracked my skull," and she's like, "What did you buy at the store?"
Jennifer Tracy: Totally.
Jackie M: I'm like, "What the hell is happening?" Thankfully for the magic of editing, but ... So, I see that in you. You are not only a great storyteller, but you pull out stories out of other people, because you're a great listener.
Jennifer Tracy: Thank you. Thank you. I love doing it. I find people fascinating. I find people's stories fascinating, and where they came from, and what they thought of themselves then. How was their self-image as a child? How did they change as they went into puberty? Who was your biggest influence? And not even stock questions. People will come onto the show, and they'll say, "Well, what are the questions that you ask?" I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know." We usually start with, "Where did you grow up?", and then I have no idea where it's going to go from there.
Jackie M: Right. Well, Jennifer Tracy where did you grow up?
Jennifer Tracy: I was born and raised in Denver, Colorado, in a suburb. I lived the first nine years of my life in Castle Rock, which is south of Denver I think by about an hour. Very woodsy, like our house backed up to woods. Like I said, I was an only child, and so I spent a lot of time alone. It wasn't that my parents were just not there, but I was very self-sufficient, and my mom, I don't know what she was doing upstairs, but my dad was at work. I would be downstairs listening to my record player. I had a big german shepherd, a black german shepherd named Smokey. We would go out in the woods, and I would imagine all these elaborate things and adventures that Smokey and I were having together. I was rescuing a princess. Then I was being rescued.
Jennifer Tracy: That is really I think where I started to lean into wanting to be a creative storyteller of some sort. I then eventually went into acting, but even then I was writing little things. I loved writing for school. Then we moved closer to the school, because my mom at some point was driving an hour each way, which is funny, because I'm just remembering I drove my son to preschool an hour each way, from here to Culver City, and at the time I was like, "Why are you doing that?" But it was like I had to have him in that preschool. I don't know. It was so silly.
Jackie M: But that's probably what your mom thought-
Jennifer Tracy: I'm sure.
Jackie M: ... when she wasn't spending all that time upstairs. Is your mom still alive?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. She is.
Jackie M: Can we call her and ask her what she was doing upstairs? Because I'm really ... You have me fascinated by that.
Jennifer Tracy: We totally can.
Jackie M: What was she doing upstairs?
Jennifer Tracy: You know what? She's in Maui right now, so we may be able to call her afterwards, and I can edit that in if we get an answer.
Jackie M: That's hilarious. I mean, it sounds like you were fully embracing your imagination as a kid. There are many of us who then feel at a certain age that imagination kind of sucked out of us, whether it's in real life ... Real life steps in in some ways like, "Stop being such a daydreamer. Don't have all these visions for yourself." Do you feel like your imagination and your creativity was fostered as a child?
Jennifer Tracy: No.
Jackie M: Was it encouraged?
Jennifer Tracy: No.
Jackie M: No?
Jennifer Tracy: No.
Jackie M: Was it like, "Jennifer, shut the hell up and go be quiet"? "We had an only child, so you'd shut up."
Jennifer Tracy: That's funny. No. My parents, bless their hearts, they're the sweetest people, but it's interesting. So, my dad was a drummer. My mom was a singer. My dad put an ad in the paper, this was in the early 70s, for a lead singer. My mom walked into the bar and auditioned. He was like, "Hubba." They were in a band. They were in a cover band for years, and they toured, and whatever. Then they fell in love and got married. My dad got his real estate license, and he just became an incredibly successful real estate salesman. My mom was a stay-at-home mom, and she kind of gave up her singing. Not kind of. She gave up her singing, until later, when she joined the Denver Symphony Orchestra Chorus. So, they were creatives, but they just cut that off in themselves.
Jennifer Tracy: I think, now looking back as a 43 year old woman, I think what actually motivated me was I'm not going to do that. Come hell or high water I am not going to cut myself off from that, because I could see how they were both not really super stoked in their lives. They didn't have a lot of friends. I was just like, "Life is great." Now, they had crappy childhoods, and I didn't. I had two parents who loved me, who were for the most part there for me. I was very well provided for, so I had a serious leg up, but they just were not living their best lives. So, I think that I took note in some corner of my mind and was like, "No way. I am going to be ..." and now having taken that path, it was hard. When I told my dad and mom, like after college, after they paid for my college education, and I got a degree in screenwriting ... because that was acceptable to them, for some reason.
Jennifer Tracy: First it was journalism, and then I was like, "Oh. I'm not going to do this." After I interned for a summer at the local news station, and I saw what it was, I was just like, "Oh, god. These people are vultures. I can't." I mean, nothing against news. There's such beauty in being truly a good journalist, but in that situation that was not for me, so I went into screenwriting. Then I came home, and I said, "Mom, Dad, I'm moving to LA, because I'm going to be an actor," and they both just went, "Ah."
Jackie M: They're like, "What did we do wrong?"
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. "What did we do wrong?" My mom said, "Well, you'll starve to death," and my dad said, "Jennifer, life is about compromising."
Jackie M: What?
Jennifer Tracy: I was so young. I was like, "Maybe for you it is, dad, but I'm going to do this thing, and I'm going to go to LA, and I'm going to ..." whatever. Yeah. Here we are.
Jackie M: Wait. I want to hear more about that. So, life is about compromising, so what? What did that mean?
Jennifer Tracy: What that meant to me ... I mean, I didn't know how to unpack things back then, so I didn't ask.
Jackie M: So, we need to call him too and ask him?
Jennifer Tracy: "Dad, what did you mean when you crushed my dreams of acting?" No. He didn't. For me what it meant was I was a drummer. And he was really good. For a time, until he sold his drum kit, I was little. I remember creeping downstairs in the basement with my like footed pajamas on, you know, pink with the ... they had the vinyl bottoms on the feet. Did you have those?
Jackie M: Yes. Of course. We called them flackies in my family.
Jennifer Tracy: Flackies.
Jackie M: I don't know where it came from, but even to this day-
Jennifer Tracy: That's a perfect name.
Jackie M: Isn't it? Even to this day my kids call them flackies.
Jennifer Tracy: That's so cute.
Jackie M: So, now everybody, all of your listeners will no longer call them feety pajamas, but they're flackies.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, because that's a more ... Feety pajamas is like, well, wait. What does that mean?
Jackie M: That's a lot of work.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Flacky.
Jackie M: Flackies.
Jennifer Tracy: So, I was wearing my pink, fuzzy flackies, and I would creep downstairs, and he would just be ... He was like a really fucking talented drummer. I remember watching him and feeling an incredible joy and deep sadness, because I knew that he was the salesman who was just grinding himself into the nothingness doing this work. It wasn't like he didn't enjoy being a salesman, but it wasn't feeding him. It wasn't feeding his soul, and he wouldn't come home and bring joy. He's come home and be like, "I just want to watch TV and cone out," and that became his life, and that is still his life, even retired. He also got cancer at 54. I sometimes think maybe it was because he was incredibly stressed out by this corporate sort of job that didn't feed him creatively. Anyway ...
Jackie M: It was just such a different time, where people were taught to find that job, get the benefits-
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely.
Jackie M: ... stay there forever. I always say punch the card, slide down the dinosaur, like Fred Flintstone, at the end of the day.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Totally.
Jackie M: That was providing. That was what you did.
Jennifer Tracy: And he did. I don't want to sound like I'm not grateful. I adore my parents. I'm so grateful to them. I went to beautiful private schools all the way through. They paid for all my college. I didn't have any student loans when I got out. They were as supportive as they could be of my being an artist, but I think as far as ... That's why for me doing what I do now, it's so important for me to model that for my kid of like, yes, I'm your parent. Yes. I'm here for you. Yes. I have this thing that's creatively mine that I have to do for myself, and I will do it for myself.
Jackie M: Right. It's a form of self-care really.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Yes.
Jackie M: How do your parents feel now? Do they listen to your podcast?
Jennifer Tracy: I don't think so. You know, my dad, he's funny. He's like, "What is ...? MILF pod ... How do I ...?" They don't have iPhones. They don't have iTunes. I said, "You can listen to everything on YouTube, or you can listen on my website." He goes, "Whoa. Yeah." He doesn't talk like that. I don't know why I'm making him sound like ... like he just .... "Oh, Mackie." He doesn't sound like that at all. He sounds just like me.
Jackie M: "Jennifer."
Jennifer Tracy: I don't know [inaudible 00:21:56] like he has no teeth.
Jackie M: I see him like waving his arms back and forth, like that little ... Who was that little ...? Captain Crunch or something.
Jennifer Tracy: Totally.
Jackie M: That's hilarious.
Jennifer Tracy: That is very inaccurate. No. He was saying, "Wow. You have ..." at the time, this was a couple weeks ago, " ... 38 episodes." I said, "Yeah. I've been doing it every week." Yeah. I've learned not to ask if they are knowing what I'm up to. They don't really show a lot of interest in it, I think because they're still scared that I'm going to fail, or that I'm going to starve to death, or that life is about compromising. My mom is 71, and my dad's 75. No. 71 and 74. Everything is very close to their house. They don't like to venture out. They don't drive down here to LA.
Jackie M: Oh. They moved out here?
Jennifer Tracy: They moved out here to be closer to me.
Jackie M: Oh. Wow.
Jennifer Tracy: [inaudible 00:22:44] Yeah. I used to ask them this when I was little, like, "Was I adopted?", because we're very different. I mean, but if you saw them, I look just like both of them.
Jackie M: Right. Like you are unique. You are your own person. I don't care who could have birthed you. I feel like you would be unique from those two people anyway. You just have this way about you. Do you remember the first time we met in person?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Of course I do.
Jackie M: I didn't even know that you were Jennifer Tracy of the MILF Podcast. But I'm up on stage, and I'm MC for this Self-Care Project event, and I see you in the crowd. We're doing some dancing, and some movement, and all this stuff. I'm like, "I want what she's having." You stood out to me, because you weren't even thinking about, at least from my angle, where you were or what people thought. You were just somebody said, "We're going to feel music, and we're going to move," and you were like, "I'm going to feel music, and I'm going to move." It didn't seem like there were a lot of those other things of like looking ... You know, you close your eyes, and then you have one eye open looking around to see if ... You were just in it. I don't know. I guess you could have been born to two more out there type of spiritual ... but I don't know. I just feel like you would buck the system one way or another.
Jennifer Tracy: I totally see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.
Jackie M: I mean, that wasn't the most eloquent way of putting it all.
Jennifer Tracy: No. It was. It actually was.
Jackie M: But were you always that way? Were you always comfortable in yourself?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, god. No. Oh, god. No. No. Just as you were describing me, I was like, "Damn. I have worked really fucking hard."
Jackie M: Well, it's paying off.
Jennifer Tracy: Thank you. Thank you. And it's so interesting, because the topic of your podcast, and being over 40, and elevating women's voices, something magical happened in my late 30s and then now in my early 40s where I feel like ... It's a great credit to all the work that I've done and the people that have been in my life, but I really don't give a fuck anymore. I don't. I do finally feel relaxed in my body. I love my cellulite on my ass. It's there, and it's part of me, and it's juicy, and it's not going away. I like to eat bread and cheese.
Jennifer Tracy: There was a time when I thought that that was the most disgusting thing, and, "Who is every going to love me," and, "I don't deserve to get a job acting." I mean, the obsession with my exterior and how much I used to beat myself up about, "Oh. I'm not that smart in this way. I'm not accomplished in this. I failed at acting, and I failed at modeling," even that languaging, it's just like, Jesus Christ. I saw that when I started doing the work in that program, and it was revealed to me through my own writing of like, "Dude, you got to let go of that shit, because would you speak to any other person in the world that way? No."
Jackie M: So, when you're out there in the woods with Smokey, and you're doing your thing, and you are being imaginative, were you that hard on yourself back then?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yeah.
Jackie M: Really?
Jennifer Tracy: From a very young age. From a very young age. I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's just part of the ism of alcoholism or addiction. I would assume quite a bit of it is genetic, you know, just whatever's in my DNA to think like that. But, yeah. No. I felt very other. I felt like a freak. You know? I was always taller than everyone. I was funny. This is so embarrassing to admit this, but ... So, when I was younger, my mom put me in modeling, because I was 14, and I hated myself. I would walk around saying, "I hate myself. I hate myself. I hate myself." My mom said, "You know what, honey? You're going to go to modeling school." I was like, "Modeling school? That's absurd." You know? She thought that it would help my self-esteem, which is a logical thought, even though it's actually the exact opposite, but she didn't know.
Jackie M: "You hate yourself. Let's put you around other people who hate you." [inaudible 00:27:07]
Jennifer Tracy: "Misery loves company. Come on. Let's go. Get in the car."
Jackie M: Totally.
Jennifer Tracy: Who also hate themselves. I did that, and I was very successful in the local market in Denver. I immediately got work. I immediately was getting calls from different agencies in Europe. Excuse me. ... different agencies in Europe, New York. By the time I was 15 I was being invited to leave high school and go live as a model.
Jackie M: Wow. For a girl whose self-esteem is in the toilet, this has to be pretty confusing to you.
Jennifer Tracy: It felt pretty good, but it felt very confusing, and my friends didn't understand it. I remember I had one friend who just berated me about it, like, "You're going to end up selling french fries at McDonald's." I was like, "I'm 15," but I felt so rejected by my peers.
Jackie M: That sounds like how many parents? That's where that one got ... I'm sure she had heard that at home a few times.
Jennifer Tracy: Exactly.
Jackie M: 15 year olds don't come up with that.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Then I got the part of Frenchie in Grease at the school play. I said to my parents and my agent at the time, I said, "I'm sorry. I can't go to London, because I got this part in the school play, and it's really important to me." I also was very clear that I didn't want to leave high school at that age. I thank God that I didn't, because, Jackie, I don't actually know if I would have survived. I don't know if I would have made it. I just was so fragile I think emotionally that I don't think I would have had the moxie to push through or even defend myself in certain scenarios.
Jennifer Tracy: I was never in really crazy scenarios, but I do remember when I lived in New York when I was 18, because after I graduated I decided I was going to go to New York for a year and try modeling, and then go back to college. I ended up going back to college immediately, because I couldn't take it. I was like, "This is awful. I hate it. This is not for me." But I remember a couple different times I would go on test shoots, and these photographers would be like, "Take your top off, and we'll just do ... you know. We'll just cover it with a scarf." Then all of a sudden they would try to pull the scarf away.
Jackie M: Wow.
Jennifer Tracy: Actually, maybe that was when I was 16. I can't remember. I went the summer of my 16th birthday. But regardless, it's full of that.
Jackie M: And you're terrified at that age.
Jennifer Tracy: Of course.
Jackie M: You don't want to upset somebody, but you know it's not feeling right.
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely. And it's not talked about. The agency, they don't give a shit. They're not sitting you down and saying, "Now, you are more important than any of this other thing, you as a human being are important to us." You're not. You're a commodity to them. They don't care.
Jackie M: They're just trying to make money off of you.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. I remember one agent told me, "Now, you're going to shoot with this young guy. He's an up and coming photographer. If he offers you drugs, do them with him."
Jackie M: No.
Jennifer Tracy: I swear to God. I swear to you.
Jackie M: Wow.
Jennifer Tracy: I didn't. He offered me weed, and I was like, "Yeah. I don't ... you know." I didn't do it.
Jackie M: Wow. At this point, you know, you talked a little bit about the 12 steps that you've gone through and that you continue, but when did you first find that you were struggling a little bit with alcohol? Were you drinking as a teenager?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yeah.
Jackie M: I mean, many of us ... Sorry. In case my parents are listening, many of others ... I hear drinking happens in high school.
Jennifer Tracy: Asking for a friend.
Jackie M: Yeah. You were like a regular teenager, kind of dabbling, or were you trying to fill some sort of void?
Jennifer Tracy: I think I was dabbling, and I was really looking for something that would make me feel cool, like I was acceptable or could be acceptable in the eyes of others. I was very concerned about how others saw me, which now I know nobody's thinking about you. They're thinking about themselves.
Jackie M: Totally.
Jennifer Tracy: They're not thinking about you.
Jackie M: What's that quote of, "You'd be shocked to know how little people actually do think of you"?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. It's so true. It's so true. So, yeah. I started. It was fine through high school, and I was a really good student, and I was a good ... Socially I was fine, and I had lots of friends, and did the musicals, and was in Student Council and that type of thing. Then New York, and I was fighting drinking and eating then, because didn't want to gain weight, but I did end up gaining some weight, because I would go out to lunch by myself and have a bottle of wine with lunch, you know, just by myself.
Jennifer Tracy: But it really didn't get going until I got to college. Then I would be out at parties and see how these people were drinking. I was like, "Oh. It's okay to drink like that. Okay. Great. That's what I really want to do." Then after college it sort of became clear to me of like there's ... not even clear. I just started noticing how much I had been ... Since I was a teenager, I really had struggled with depression, not knowing that it was depression. I just thought it was, again, just some huge flaw in me that that's because you're lame. You're just not happy and joyous, and that's your fault or whatever.
Jennifer Tracy: But the alcoholism and that kind of went hand in hand and fed each other. It wasn't until I think I was 22, and I was on the set of a commercial in Denver, and I met this woman. She was talking about how she didn't drink, and I was like, "What do you mean you don't drink? That's dumb." She was older. She was in her 30s. She offered to take me to a 12 step group. I went, and I didn't get sober right away. Then I moved to LA three months later, and eventually a couple months after that I finally did.
Jackie M: Did you express that you felt like maybe you had a problem to her when she said she was sober?
Jennifer Tracy: I remember it so clearly, like it was yesterday. She said, "Do you think you're an alcoholic?", after we had talked about it for a while. I just couldn't comprehend what she meant by she doesn't drink. She told me a little bit about her story. Then she said very softly, "Do you think you might be an alcoholic?", and I said, "Oh. I know I am." It was as if someone reached into my head like a puppet hand and said the words for me. It was that first admission of it that made me realize, "Oh my god. Maybe that's what's wrong." That just set me about on this journey of finding. Then I learned, after I eventually did get sober in 1998, that the drinking was just a symptom of all the other shit, and I really drank because I felt all those things of like self-loathing and insecurity. Yes. There's a scientific allergy that when I have alcohol, I want more, but it was all the other stuff that I was trying to drink away.
Jackie M: Right. Which ironically doesn't make it go away at all.
Jennifer Tracy: Exactly. It makes it worse. Yeah.
Jackie M: Right. That's a pretty young age though for someone-
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. I'm so lucky. I feel so lucky.
Jackie M: Yeah. I mean, I was just getting started at that age, as far as the alcoholm I mean, the stuff I had gone through, and the over consumption, and all of that. It would have never even occurred to me at that age to be able to get that help. So, how did the people around you ...? Now, you're doing your thing, and you're living your life, and you're in your 20s, and you love alcohol. You know? How did you go from where you were to now like, "Hey. I don't drink. I'm an alcoholic. I'm recovering. I'm doing 12 steps"? How did your family respond?
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Well, my parents were like, "What?" They didn't believe me, because they never saw it. You know? I was really good at keeping it away from them, to protect them. So, they still actually ... My dad said something a couple years ago, where he was like, "Are you really an alcoholic?" I was like, "Yup. Sure am." But they've seen how much in the 20 years I've grown just emotionally, spiritually, maturity wise, so they started to see in action all the benefits of it, so I don't think they had a problem. They don't drink at all. I mean, they drink once in a while. They have no issues with that kind of stuff.
Jackie M: It wasn't something that was always around you.
Jennifer Tracy: No. Not even close. But I had just moved to LA, so I didn't really have my old drinking buddies here, so that part was actually really convenient. All my new friends were sober, so we were all sober together. It was me and this gaggle of young girls my age, and we would go from meeting, to meeting, to meeting, to diner to eat, to like ... Yeah. It was this shared experience with my peers doing the same thing.
Jackie M: Right. That's amazing.
Jennifer Tracy: It was such a gift.
Jackie M: Because I don't know that you would get that in many cities, where you could connect with other young women like that. I think that maybe it would take them a little bit longer before they're ready to get help.
Jennifer Tracy: I don't know. I don't know.
Jackie M: Do you think there's a lot out there?
Jennifer Tracy: Statistically I'm wondering. I do. I do. I think that the-
Jackie M: What do I know? I'm not-
Jennifer Tracy: Just if you're listening, and you're thinking about that, and you feel like you might need to reach out, you can call the local AA chapter wherever you are and just ask where the nearest meeting is. You can ask where the nearest young people's meeting is. You'd be surprised. I mean, there are people in their late teens. Well, anyway, there's people in their late teens that are coming in. You're like, "What? You're 18. How do you even ...?", but they do. They gave me, which I think is translated into my podcast and just my work of like, goddammit, we're all just doing the best we can. You know? You never know what the other person's dealing with.
Jennifer Tracy: I recently had an interaction with this woman. I'm going to do a live podcast event, and I'm trying to get ahold of this woman, because I want to use her space, calling, emailing, calling, so I finally ... No response. No response. I was starting to get offended. I'm like, "Does she think I'm just not cool enough? Does she think I'm too old?", a little bit of that. But then I was like, "Well, maybe her grandma died, or maybe her kid is sick. I don't know." So, I go to the place, and I'm like, "Is so-and-so here today?", and they're like, "Oh, yeah. She was just here." I'm like, "Can I see her?" They're like, "Well, she's in a meeting. Can you email her?" I'm like, "Well, I've tried emailing her."
Jennifer Tracy: Anyway, several weeks go by, and I go to the place, and she's there. I'm like, "Hey." I said, "It's me. I've been emailing you." She goes, "I've been emailing you back. Have you not gotten any of my emails?" I'm like, "no." So, we connect on the thing. She's like, "We'd love to host your event," this, and this, and this. I go home. I check my junk. All of her emails are in my junk mail, for some reason. I don't know why.
Jackie M: Oh my gosh.
Jennifer Tracy: But I made it mean-
Jackie M: You're like, "You stupid son of a bitch."
Jennifer Tracy: Totally. I made it mean that she didn't like me for whatever reason, and I was being excluded, and I was being treated unfairly. But throughout that I kind of maintained ... Thank God I was graceful, because I've learned how not to be like, "This woman's not returning my emails."
Jackie M: Yeah. Burning all your bridges.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. So, things like that, just misconceptions.
Jackie M: Right. Yeah. We do that. We make these assumptions based on what our perception is, not the reality necessarily. Let's get to present day. You're a mom. You've got two of the cutest dogs I've ever seen in my life. You've got this amazing space. You are giving zero fucks. You go and you do a striptease exercise thing. You move your body at the self-care event like nobody else. You seem like you're in it. You're grooving. You're feeling the vibe of life.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Jackie M: True or false?
Jennifer Tracy: True. True.
Jackie M: And you are creative as fuck, because you are creating these programs too that you are teaching other people how to tell their stories, and you are sharing stories on this podcast. It's just all grooving. What's next for you? Are you living in this moment, or what's happening?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, and. Yes, both. More of this, because I love doing this, this being the programs that I offer in my private, one-on-one coaching and the podcast, my baby, my second child. I'm working to get my first novel published, Honey Pie.
Jackie M: Wow.
Jennifer Tracy: It's about a mom who becomes a dominatrix-
Jackie M: Nice.
Jennifer Tracy: ... and eventually a high end escort.
Jackie M: Okay. Why? Where did this story come from? Is this an autobiography? Tell us now. What are you holding out, Jennifer Tracy?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, girl. I wish I had that much exciting personal stories to share. No. When my son went into preschool, he was three, and I was coming out of the fog of postpartum depression, I had finally gotten therapy. I had finally gotten proper meds and diagnosed. I had four hours a day to myself again. You know? I've shared this on the show before, but when my son was 18 days old, my husband at the time had to leave town for work. He chose to take this job that was out of town, because he had been unemployed for several months. Then he was out of town for basically the first two and a half years. So, I was a solo parent.
Jackie M: That's so hard.
Jennifer Tracy: Not having planned on that or prepared for it. So, this was now, flash forward, he's three. My husband was back home, working in town, and I could breathe again. So, I started getting energy again, and I started doing bookkeeping for a couple different people, because I learned how to do bookkeeping, because we got audited in 2010, and I was like, "I'm never going to go through that again without being prepared." So, I got trained in bookkeeping. So, I started doing work. I was like, "Well, let me just make some money doing that." Then a friend of mine at the preschool, who's now one of my best friends, said, "Oh. I'm doing this fundraiser at my pole dancing studio." I was like, "What?"
Jennifer Tracy: I went to the pole dancing class with her. She's very beautiful and very put together, extremely smart. Our kids are the same age. They're still friends. I just never would have been prepared for what I saw in that class. So, we go to the class. We do the warm up. At the end of the class she's asked to demo the pole skills and stuff. I'm like, "Oh. This is going to be fun." They turn the lights down. They turn on the music, and I'm like ... I've said this before. I really did ... For a couple weeks I'm like, "Am I gay?" Because I was so aroused, and so turned on, and so lit on fire by this woman being so genuinely in her own sexuality, her own brand of sexuality and movement. It wasn't choreographed. She was wearing what she wanted to wear. She was stripping away what she wanted to strip away. She had on a bra and panties. Then she peeled off her shirt at one point. It was just this slow taking ... She was taking off her shirt, but very slowly and deliberately. My mind was blown.
Jennifer Tracy: So, I signed up for the class, and I started taking pole dancing class. My life changed, because the place where I study, it's all about going in and finding what turns you on, and what makes you want to move your body that way, and what feels good. It's not for the pleasure of a partner, you know, or anyone else in the room. We witness each other, but it's really just for yourself. So, that started me on this journey of I was 38, and I was like, "Oh my god. I'm horny. You know? I want to dance, and I want to ..." I'd come home, and I'd be like, "Honey," and my husband what be like, "What?" He was very skeptical of the whole thing.
Jackie M: He's the one man who was skeptical of pole dancing classes? It's him. His picture is right next to ... on the front of the building, like he's the one skeptic. Every other guy would be like, "I'll watch the kid. I got this. Tuesday? Do it."
Jennifer Tracy: "I'll watch the kid." I love it. He was a little afraid of it. Our marriage was already starting to dissolve, so that was hard. Gosh. On another note, we tried really, really hard. We really did. We went to lots and lots of therapy. But, yeah. The pole dancing, and then I just started having this idea of a woman my age at the time reclaiming herself, redefining herself, rediscovering herself, or discovering herself anew, and finding out that this is not an end. Because when my kid was little and I was in postpartum depression, I was like, "I'm basically dead. I've died. This is the end of my life, because this is it forever."
Jackie M: A version of yourself probably had.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Yes. So, then out of this pole dancing a new version of me, the 2.0 version of Jen was birthed, and I needed to write about it. I didn't know what I was going to write. I thought about a TV show, because I've written so many unsold TV shows and screenplays in my life. I went to my friend, Annie Jacobsen, who's a very well known author, and I said, "I kind of have this idea." She said, "Nope. Write the manuscript. Write a book." I was like, "Why? I've never written a book. I don't know know how to write a book." She said, "Write the book. You will own it. If you write a TV script ... You're a woman. You're an unpublished woman in this town, an uncredited writer in this town. They will eat you alive. You're almost 40. Write the book. I'm telling you."
Jackie M: Great advice.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. So, I got a writing coach, and I wrote the book. It took me four years.
Jackie M: Wow.
Jennifer Tracy: But that's what inspired me and-
Jackie M: The research must have been fascinating.
Jennifer Tracy: It was. I mean, I went into several of these I don't know if you'd call them chat rooms. They're like forums. But there's so much out there for the BDSM community. There's just so much. I have yet to ... though someone just recently said, "Why don't you go ...? There's a sex club. Blah. Blah. Blah." I was like, "Yes. I should do that," but I've been a little timid about doing it.
Jackie M: Well, you had Wendy Miller on your podcast.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Jackie M: I've learned more from her-
Jennifer Tracy: No kidding.
Jackie M: ... and some of the things that she talks about, as far as being at Playboy, being a woman, and being in charge of programming, and all of that stuff, and how respectful those places can be. There's one actually right down the street that I went to back in the 90s, where there was like piercing happening on stage. There was a back room where there was whipping. I was 23 years old, and I was like, "What have I done? I'm not in Boston anymore." But she talks about some of these places and actually how respectful ... how the boundaries are there, that you do what you want to do, and you don't do what you don't want to do.
Jennifer Tracy: And they don't fuck around.
Jackie M: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: I mean, they really do not fuck around.
Jackie M: Oh, yeah. There's no room for anything that's not completely consensual. That's awesome. Some of it's based on, it sounds like, you and your experience with kind of finding your 2.0, but then taking it to a fantasy level.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Also, the character's back is up against the wall, and she has to do. In fiction I had to make it there was a conflict, so there's a time. There's a clock ticking, and she has something motivating her. I forgot what I was just going to say. I just totally lost my train of thought. Oh. 2.0. Fantasy. But also within that context and in the book is the discovery that her marriage isn't working, and the sadness around that, and realizing that the life that she had built for herself in this way, and the construct of a marriage, and a mortgage, and these things. It's like, "Yeah. That doesn't work for me, like where I am now. I can't pretend that that's gonna work anymore the way it is." I think a lot of women and men wake up. It's like that Talking Heads song, How Did I get Here? You know? You kind of wake up, and you go, "Oh my god. I have however many kids. I have this many bills," like my dad maybe. I don't know. I can't speak for him, but, "This job that is a lot of pressure or whatever. I don't like it. How can I change this? Can I change this? Is it okay to change this?"
Jackie M: Right. I love that, because I think even though your book is this fantasy world, the underlying questions, and struggles, and challenges are so universal, so universal. I see it all the time with people who ... But isn't it amazing that you can take all these steps, this action, right? Just small steps every day. Let's just take your dad, for example. I can leave my drumming, hang up my sticks, and go and get a license in real estate, and continue moving, continue moving, and then have a life that looks nothing like what it did, but yet I'm the same person. I'm not really saying your dad, but the same person, who doesn't believe that I can completely change my life and make it look like nothing-
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. When I already have.
Jackie M: When I already have.
Jennifer Tracy: Totally.
Jackie M: But just because it went that way-
Jennifer Tracy: Totally.
Jackie M: But it's like, "Dude, you just did that, so now find something else, and do it there." So, that's really ... My jam is like women like you, women over 40 who see the opportunities and then know it's like, sure, you want to make a goal. Sure you want to at least have an idea of the direction you're going, but just start taking steps. Just be in a place of action. You know? I'm sure you've found that. You've had a lot of transitions in your life. You could be so overwhelmed at what might or might not happen, but when you just take the small steps toward it, like the book ... Writing a book is terrifying, I assume.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. So hard. One of the hardest things I've ever done. The hardest thing I've ever done creatively.
Jackie M: But how hard was it when you were actually like, "Hey. I'm going to write five pages today"? Is that hard?
Jennifer Tracy: No, because I had ... Annie, the woman that I asked and who said, "No. Write the manuscript," right before I hired the coach she said, "15 minutes three times a week." I was like, "What?" She said, "I'm telling you, that's how I started." Now, this is a woman who now writes, when she's in a project, she'll write eight to ten hours a day. I can't do that. I can only write four hours a day. But she's prolific in her writing. She said, "No. 15 minutes three times a week." This was so funny. I just took on a new client, and she said, "Well, how much a day do I have to write?" We hadn't had our intake session yet. I said, "Well, that all is going to depend on your goals and what you're writing." I said, "But it really actually doesn't matter. It's just about the consistency, and the commitment, and getting your ass in that chair."
Jennifer Tracy: So, what Annie had told me was when she started writing, when she was my age ... I mean, she had always written. She's a very well known journalist and brilliant, brilliant woman. But when she started writing her nonfiction books, she had a mentor that said, "You sit down for 15 minutes three weeks a day. Even if all you write is, 'Here I am', on your word processing whatever, that's it." I did that. I just sat down, and I would write, "Here I am. I don't know what to write," or I'd write a jumble of words. I remember my writing coach, for our first session she's like, "Send me what you have." I was like, "Fuck." So, I sent her just this mess of I don't even know what was in there. I'd love to go back and look.
Jackie M: Bread, milk.
Jennifer Tracy: Exactly. Exactly. Not far from that, literally. It was like a list of emotions, but that was the seed. You know? She was like, "Great. I read what you wrote." There was no like ... I was so expecting her on our first call to be like, "So, Jen. I don't think this is going to work," or whatever, some kind of rejection.
Jackie M: You're fired.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. It was like, "Great. Yeah. I read what you wrote. Let's keep going, because that's just one page. We're going to do many, many, many, many, many." It just gave me the permission to just write crap.
Jackie M: Get started, and keep going.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Chop wood, carry water, I always say. Just chop wood, carry water, and pretty soon you'll have a house.
Jackie M: Right. Amazing. Not only are you writing this book, but you are teaching other people how to pull out their own stories. How is that going?
Jennifer Tracy: I love it.
Jackie M: Yeah?
Jennifer Tracy: It lights me up so much to work with writers and help them uncover what's in their heart and in this desire to express this story. I mean, I really believe when you have something that's tugging at you ... and you all have it. Everyone who's listening has something like that. It may not be something that you want to write, but it's some kind of creative project that we all say, "Well, I've got bills to pay," or, "I've got children to raise," or, "That's not important. That's not important," but there's a reason that it's calling to you, whether it's like, "I've always wanted to take ballet class," or whatever it is. I believe there's a divine reason that's calling to you, and ultimately I believe it's so that you'll get healed and other people will get healed.
Jennifer Tracy: When I'm with a writer who's discovering things about themselves through their story, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, screenplay, TV pilot. Those are really the things I work with. Or sometimes I'll do a stage play. That's pretty rare though. I've only done that one or two times. It's just to see them light up and make these discoveries about themselves and then to be able to translate that into story through the characters of the story, the plot of the story, it's magic. It's magic. Then when that things get out in the world, in whatever form it's in, it's limitless in how many people it can affect.
Jackie M: Right. Yeah. Isn't it amazing when you see people that you've helped move forward? It's actually in some ways more exciting to see them do it than yourself. Right?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. Absolutely. Because you can't really measure your own internal success. It's hard to see it. It's funny. When you're asking me about my sobriety, I'm like, "Ah." Now, it's no big deal. I mean, it is. I'm still very involved in caring for my sobriety and nurturing it, but now it's no big deal. But back then it was a struggle to just even think that I could be one year sober, much less 20.
Jackie M: Right. Right. But one day at a time. That showing up and keep going. Show up, and keep going. I mean, it's really the key. Before we go, can we do a little lightening round?
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jackie M: Because I just don't know. I've heard many of your episodes, and I just think people want to know more about you. I know you did an episode earlier this year that was just you. I want more of that.
Jennifer Tracy: Aw.
Jackie M: You got to give us more Jennifer Tracy.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. I will. I will. I promise.
Jackie M: Okay. Biggest turn on.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. Integrity.
Jackie M: Best day ever.
Jennifer Tracy: It's so hard. I have to go with the day my son was born. That's sort of cliché, but it really is.
Jackie M: But, you know, it's true. Right?
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. It was a really good day.
Jackie M: Biggest fear.
Jennifer Tracy: That I won't find another great romantic love.
Jackie M: Yeah. I get that.
Jennifer Tracy: Because I loved my husband. I still love him. I really, really loved him, and I was deeply in love with him. That shifted and changed, but I love being in love, and I love having a partner, but I don't know if that's going to happen. It's like you can ask me about all these other things, and I'm like, "Oh. Yeah. No. I'm going to do my course. I'm writing my second book, and this, and that." I'm very, for the most part, "That's going to happen, because I can take those actions to make that happen," but when you involve this other thing, it's like, "I don't know."
Jackie M: Right. We don't have as much control over another-
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jackie M: I believe it.
Jennifer Tracy: Thank you.
Jackie M: Greatest unrealized dream so far.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. You know, it's interesting. I was listening to your episode with Leigh, I'm going to mess up her last name, Koechner?
Jackie M: Koechner.
Jennifer Tracy: Koechner. Thank you. I knew it. I knew I was going to say it wrong.
Jackie M: That's okay.
Jennifer Tracy: Leigh Koechner, who's amazing. I want to meet her. She was talking about the one person show that she wrote. For a while there was a one woman show I was writing, and it was one of those ... This was many years ago. It was one of those projects that I was writing, and then I started, and then I just stopped, because I thought ... When I talk about it in a lot of my courses and with my clients is that gremlin mind, the doubt and fear, that's like, "Oh, yeah. This is never going to [inaudible 00:56:40]. You should just stop." You know? Instead of really keeping on with the action. So, I listened to her talk about that, and it reignited that desire in me to do a one woman show. That is definitely an unrealized dream that I've had for a long time.
Jackie M: Awesome. Your final question. What would you say is the thing that makes you most special?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. That's such a sweet question.
Jackie M: It's true. Girl, the world needs you more than you could ever realize.
Jennifer Tracy: These are good questions. They're hard questions. I'm going to get emotional about it for some reason. My ability to forgive people and to come with kindness. You know? Because for me that gives me so much pleasure, and joy, and relief. You know? I don't know if that makes me special, but it makes me special to myself.
Jackie M: When other people maybe wrong you or come at you, do something, that you continue to show up from a place of love and kindness.
Jennifer Tracy: Even if it's within a boundary place, even if I have to hit block caller-
Jackie M: That's right, bitches.
Jennifer Tracy: ... I will still eventually be able to look upon that person with compassion and empathy, because, like I said before, you never know what the other person's dealing with truly, and it's not personal, even though sometimes it feels so personal, even if sometimes you're being attacked, either physically, or emotionally, or whatever, and it is personal, but it's really not. It's their shit.
Jackie M: Right. And it's their journey.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jackie M: Well, Jen, I think I can speak for all of your listeners. I adore you.
Jennifer Tracy: Aw. I adore you.
Jackie M: This show is just everything. I love these conversations. Like I said, on days where I feel like I haven't connected with anyone over the age of 14, you know, and I feel like I'm working, and [inaudible 00:58:49], it's my release from ... It's my connection sometimes, you know, when I don't have that ability to necessarily reach out to someone and have that 20 minute phone call or whatever. So, thank you for everything you do and for this podcast.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. It's my pleasure. Thank you for interviewing me-
Jackie M: Yay.
Jennifer Tracy: ... and being my host today.
Jackie M: In your bedroom for the first time. I'm just saying.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. You made it into the bedroom, baby. Thanks, Jackie.
Jackie M: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: Thanks so much for listening, guys. I really hope you enjoyed Jackie's interview with me. Please head on over to Forty Thrive Podcast and listen to the other half of this interview pod swap, where I'm interviewing her. It's such a good interview. She's such a fascinating lady, and I loved her story, and I just love her. Isn't she just so great? Don't you just want to hang out with her for four hours in your bedroom? Anyway, so, thanks for listening.
Jennifer Tracy: Next week on the show tune in. I am interviewing Tembi Locke, author of From Scratch, which is now one of my top five favorite books of all time. I cannot recommend it highly enough. It is a memoir of her journey of losing her husband to a rare form of cancer when their daughter was seven. He had had it for 10 years. Anyway, it's absolutely an exquisite book. Actually, you know what? I'm going to correct myself. That is a piece of the story, but it's really a love story. It's a love story about the two of them and how they met in Italy, where he's from. It's just beautiful the way she wrote it. It's exquisite, and I fell in love with her too. I'm just falling in love with woman all the time. I feel very, very fortunate to be able to do what I do. So, I hope you'll tune into that. I love you guys. Keep going, and treat yourself to something sweet today.