Jen Schwartz: Two days after being home, something just felt really wrong. I kept having these visions of getting hurt so I could go back to the hospital and not have to be a mom or take care of a baby. I always say I was lucky, because for me, it hit really quickly, and a red flag went up, like I was so excited about this, and yet I can't stop crying. I want nothing to do with my son, I don't want to get out of bed, like, "What did I just do to my life? I just blew up my life. I don't want to do this. I made a horrible mistake." With all that, you're like, "What the hell is wrong with me?"
Speaker 2: You're listening to the MILF Podcast. This is the show where we talk about motherhood and sexuality with amazing women with fascinating stories to share on the joys of being a MILF. Now, here's your host, the MILFiest MILF I know, Jennifer Tracy.
Jennifer Tracy: Hey, guys. Welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Jennifer Tracy, and this is MILF Podcast, the show where we talk about motherhood, entrepreneurship, sexuality, and everything in between, and I talk with creative moms about birthing more than babies. So today on the show we have Jen Schwartz of MOTHERHOOD-UNDERSTOOD. Jen is a postpartum anxiety survivor, and she talks very openly about her journey through postpartum and her diagnosis and treatment. And I just really was so honored that she wanted to be on the show, because I think it's so empowering when one woman speaks out about her experience with postpartum depression, anxiety, any of the various things that we can experience.
Jennifer Tracy: It really opens the door for other moms who are experiencing that now or have experienced, and it really brings so much relief. I know it has for me, even now still. When I was experiencing my postpartum depression, I didn't know about a podcast. There might have been one at the time, but I didn't know about it. This was almost 10 years ago. And I felt so alone, I felt so isolated, and I felt like something was so wrong with me, and I just want to say, if you're suffering, there's nothing wrong with you. You are perfectly normal, and you're doing the very best you can, and you're exactly where you need to be, and please reach out and get help.
Jennifer Tracy: Call your OB/GYN, call your general doctor, call your clinic, and explain to them the way that you're feeling and the thoughts that you're thinking, because it is not rainbows and unicorns for most of us when we have babies. That's not reality. But there is help.
Jennifer Tracy: So anyway, I was thrilled to sit down with Jen. We weren't actually in the same room, 'cause she's in North Carolina, but we were able to connect online and I was able to interview her, and she just had so many wonderful insights. So I really hope you enjoy this interview.
Jennifer Tracy: Also, I'm starting a new program. My amazing team ... just I have the most amazing team behind me. Also, I just want to be really transparent about that. I am not a one-woman show. It might look like that sometimes, but I always want to pull those covers and say, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no." I have Sara [Candella 00:03:24] as my producer. She is miraculous. I have Corinne Bowen helping me with my marketing. I have Liz, who does .... I don't even know how many jobs Liz does, she just does so many different jobs. And I have Derek, our amazing editor who, and I always say this, he makes me sound way better than I actually sound.
Jennifer Tracy: So I have a team of people that help me do this, and I don't really think I could do it without them. Or if I did it, it would be like, okay, but it wouldn't be as good as it is, and it's really good, you guys. It's just so good. So, it is. It actually is.
Jennifer Tracy: Anyway, with that shout out to my peeps, my team ... I love my team. I love you guys. I love you so much. So Sara had gave me the idea of taking a charity each month and giving a dollar, for every iTunes review that we get, giving a dollar to that charity, and I love that idea. So that's one way I'm going to start doing this, and then expand it as we go on. So for the month of December, I have picked Every Mother Counts. If you're not familiar with this organization, please go check it out on everymothercounts.org.
Jennifer Tracy: This is such an amazing organization. Their mission is to help make pregnancy and childbirth safe for everyone everywhere. So what they do is they provide access to healthcare and maternal medical needs for women and children all around the world. Go check out their website so you'll learn about more what they do, but they really actually do what they say they do.
Jennifer Tracy: And so anyway, for every review, iTunes review, that MILF Podcast gets in the month of December, I'm going to donate a dollar to Every Mother Counts. Not only that, because it's the holidays, I'm going to triple that and give ... for each review, I'm going to give $3. I don't know why I didn't just start with that. For the month of December, I'm going to give $3 for every review. I hope that you guys make me write a huge check. At the end of the month, I will give a huge out to every single person who wrote a review. So anyway, do it, and check out this organization. If you don't want to write a review and you just want to give them money, please do that. Please do that.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. I've rambled long enough. I want you to hear Jen Schwartz. She is amazing. You guys are amazing. Happy holidays, and thanks so much for listening.
Jennifer Tracy: Hi, Jen.
Jen Schwartz: Hi. How are you?
Jennifer Tracy: I'm good. How are you? Thanks so much for being on the show.
Jen Schwartz: I'm so excited. Thanks for having me.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my gosh. So you're in New York?
Jen Schwartz: I'm actually in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, you're in Charlotte, North Carolina?
Jen Schwartz: I am, but I kind of go back and forth a lot. I'm from New York.
Jennifer Tracy: I see.
Jen Schwartz: My whole family's up there. I actually will be there this weekend, so ...
Jennifer Tracy: So what is in Charlotte?
Jen Schwartz: So my husband's business is in Charlotte.
Jennifer Tracy: Ah.
Jen Schwartz: Yes, so I've been here since 2007. And I guess it's really home base, but I still like to say it's New York, like New York is home base. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, I get it. I get it. Oh, that's cool.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: So tell me about you. I want to know ... There's so many interesting things about what you're doing and all the stuff you have going on, but I want to kind of start from the beginning. So you're originally from New York?
Jen Schwartz: I am. I'm originally from New York. And I met my husband, at the time he was my boyfriend, in 2004. And he moved to Charlotte that year, and we dated long distance.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, wow.
Jen Schwartz: And I moved here three years later.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, wow. Okay.
Jen Schwartz: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So it was a big transition. And yeah, so I kind of had lots of different jobs in New York before I moved here. Was living on the upper east side. And when I moved to Charlotte, I decided to go back to school and get my master's, and I became an English teacher.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, wow.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah. So before motherhood and before postpartum depression and MOTHERHOOD-UNDERSTOOD, I was a middle school English teacher.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, wow. That's great.
Jen Schwartz: I know.
Jennifer Tracy: Very great.
Jen Schwartz: Everybody was fine that way, everyone. In [inaudible 00:07:42], everyone is always like, "Oh, bless your heart."
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jen Schwartz: But I really, I loved my kids, but yeah, it was a lot. And I was an English major in college and love English and film and things like that, and so it seemed like a natural fit. And I liked it a lot, but I actually ended up quitting into my maternity leave, because I knew I was not going back once I had my son. I was lucky I didn't have to. But there was no way that I could chase around 100 middle-schoolers and then come home and be a parent.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yeah.
Jen Schwartz: I just couldn't do it. I give major props to everybody who does. I just ... I don't know how they do it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. So then you had your son, and when was that, what year was that?
Jen Schwartz: I had him in March of 2013. So Jay and I had ... Jason's my husband. Jay and I had already been married for five years, but we had been together for ... what's 2013 ... like 11, 11 years. And he was planned. I was really excited to be a mom. I feel like I had the typical, the fairytale visions of what it was going to be like. And the ironic thing is that who I thought I would be after a mom, I wasn't that person before I was a mom, either. Like I thought I was going to have my baby and fall in love with him right away and do Pinterest things and take him everywhere, right, and puree baby food, and just kind of transform, like when Cinderella spins around with her fairy godmother into that dress. That was going to be me as a mom, in the kitchen.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jen Schwartz: And the funny thing is, is I didn't really cook before I was a mom. My husband's the cook. I don't really like it that much. I am not a DIY person. I like to look on Pinterest, but then I will pay someone to do the decorations for me.
Jen Schwartz: In the hospital, so I had a really long labor. I labored for 24 hours, pushed for two, and had a C-section, which apparently is a ... and we can talk more about this later, but is a huge risk factor for postpartum depression, that long. Yeah, long labor, which ... and we'll talk more about that later.
Jen Schwartz: But I think I was pretty happy in the hospital. And I brought him home, and two days after being home, something just felt really wrong, and I kept having these visions of getting hurt so I could go back to the hospital and not have to be a mom or take care of a baby. And I always say I was lucky, because for me, it hit really quickly and a red flag went up, like I was so excited about this, and yet I can't stop crying. I want nothing to do with my son, I don't want to get out of bed, like, "What did I just do to my life? I just blew up my life. I don't want to do this. I made a horrible mistake."
Jen Schwartz: And then, with all that, you're like, "What the hell is wrong with me?" Because every single other mother I know, whether it's personally as a friend or on social media, they're all smiling. They love it. They're so good at it. I mean, we know that that's not true, right?
Jennifer Tracy: Exactly.
Jen Schwartz: But at the time-
Jennifer Tracy: But it looks that way, sure.
Jen Schwartz: Right. And so I was like, "Why am I horrible at something that is supposed to come naturally to every woman?" And that kind of compounded everything. And kind of from that day, that was, I guess, the first day of my postpartum depression battle, which lasted about a year.
Jennifer Tracy: And what did you do? Did you call someone or did you talk to your husband? What was your first move?
Jen Schwartz: Yeah. So I was, again, really lucky, so my mom, who is a therapist as a second career, was staying with us for a few days, because we had the bris eight days later, which, if you don't know a bris ... or people who don't know what a bris is, it's basically a ceremony for the circumcision, and it happens eight days after your son is born, and it's a part with food. And so my mom was here, and I promised myself that night I would say something to her. I was embarrassed, but I kind of gave myself a pep talk, like, "You have to say something. This isn't normal." And I was about to say something, and she in true, Jewish New Yorker mom fashion said, "Jen, what's going on?" And so my husband had already said something to her. So he noticed that something wasn't right and said something to her.
Jen Schwartz: And so from that point, we called my OB the next day, and that kind of led to kind of like a scavenger hunt, I feel like, of sorts, to actually find what ended up the right treatment to get better, because I didn't know what was happening to me and I didn't know what I needed to get better.
Jennifer Tracy: Right. Major kudos to you for ... kudos to your mom and your husband, first of all. Bravo for them being supportive and acknowledging you and being tuned into you enough to really be there for you and help you get help, and then also for you, for getting the courage up to say something, which you didn't have to, sort of, because she sort of stepped in, but that you were going to, because ... and I've shared this on the show before, for me, it was two and a half years before I asked for help. So that's amazing.
Jennifer Tracy: So what was the next step after you went to the OB/GYN on the scavenger hunt? What was the-
Jen Schwartz: So I went to my OB the next day. She fit me in. And I was hysterical, crying in her office. My mom was holding the baby. My sister was with us, too, because I didn't want to hold the baby. And she said, "It's really early. We can't really diagnose anything for two weeks, because it could just be baby blues." And I know her from the community, also, so she's kind of like a friend's acquaintance. And she also said, "I've seen so many women like this, women who are lawyers and doctors, like this, who are thriving now," but at the time, that didn't help, because I didn't even know what was wrong with me. So she prescribed me Klonopin for the anxiety and sent me home, and I guess I had to wait, wait two weeks, to see if it got better or not.
Jen Schwartz: So I started taking the Klonopin. It was amazing, because I would lie in bed and take it, and the thoughts would stop, and I would fall asleep, and while family members were taking care of Mason, my son. But then after a few days, the Klonopin stopped working. That's how bad the anxiety was.
Jen Schwartz: So I called my regular doctor freaking out, and I went there, hysterical crying. He didn't really ... I don't think he said anything about maternal mental health or postpartum depression. He prescribed me Xanax, like extended release or something, so it releases a little each day, and that didn't work.
Jen Schwartz: And we started ... my mom helped me find a therapist, and as I always say, finding a therapist is like dating, 'cause you might not find the right one at first. And so the first one I went to, I remember sitting on her couch, and she just wanted to talk about ways I could be a good mom.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, God.
Jen Schwartz: How can you be a good mom-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, no.
Jen Schwartz: Right. And A) I don't have a diagnosis. I don't know what's wrong with me. I would have done anything to make the anxiety stop. You know like the five stages of grief? It was like the five stages of postpartum anxiety, and I was in the bargaining phase, like, "Please, please, whatever ... just take it away." And I didn't even want to be a mom, so how could I even think about being a good mom?
Jen Schwartz: So then, and this was now, I feel like maybe two, two weeks in, so I'm suffering now for two weeks, at least, which isn't really a long time when you think about how other people- [crosstalk 00:15:49]
Jennifer Tracy: But when you're in that kind of pain, yeah.
Jen Schwartz: No, of course.
Jennifer Tracy: ... forever, but yeah.
Jen Schwartz: And then luckily, just randomly, we were looking online and Googling for more therapists, and I happened to just type in "postpartum depression, Charlotte, North, Carolina," I found a woman, Dr. Thorne. She works at a little office, there's four of them, called The Postpartum Center for the Carolinas, and I called right away. I think it was a weekend. I left a message. She called me back by Monday, and I made an appointment.
Jen Schwartz: And I went in there, and I swear to God, like the sky opened up. I mean, I wasn't better, but that there was some light, because she gave me a diagnosis, right? She talked to me and told me about postpartum depression. She told me that she treats thousands of moms like me every day. In my head, I really was the only one in the entire universe going through this, because I didn't know anybody else who ever had it or who ever talked about it. And she also gave me a sheet of paper to check off different boxes, which were risk factors of postpartum depression, and I had a lot of them.
Jen Schwartz: And they're different for every mom, so it's really hard to give a pregnant mom a checklist, because it's not one size fits all. But she said, "I do this, because it takes the blame off of you, and you see that there are all these things that are part of the reason why you're going through this." And I wish somebody slipped that risk factor sheet in my bag in an OB appointment or something. But basically, because she educated me and she diagnosed me said, "It gets better ..." And I didn't believe her. I thought she was lying to me at every appointment when she said, "It's going to get better. You're going to get better." I felt like I was going to live that way forever. But finding the woman who specialized in it, the doctor who specialized, is really what made the difference.
Jen Schwartz: And then between her and my regular doctor, they got me into a psychiatrist pretty quickly, and he put me on antidepressants and Ativan. And Ativan seemed to be the magical antianxiety drug for me. That worked. It never stopped working. And I took Lexapro, which didn't work. It made me feel kind of very flat. And I always say, "I'm not a medical professional, so I can just tell you what I take. I'm not recommending anything."
Jennifer Tracy: Right.
Jen Schwartz: But for me, the Lexapro didn't work, and so he switched it. But then remember, an antidepressant takes four to six weeks to take effect.
Jennifer Tracy: Right.
Jen Schwartz: So now I had to wait another four to six weeks for the second one to take effect, so which is why I kind of call it a scavenger hunt.
Jennifer Tracy: Sure.
Jen Schwartz: So I feel like by month two, I was kind of on a treatment plan. It just takes time. It doesn't work right away.
Jennifer Tracy: Right.
Jen Schwartz: And that was kind of my journey into trying to be really gentle with myself, trying not to feel guilty.
Jen Schwartz: One of the other reasons why I say I was really lucky is because I slept, because the lack of sleep that we get as moms in general exacerbates everything, but a mental health illness, it really exacerbates. And I had a night nurse. She was just supposed to come for three nights a week for four weeks to help, and we ended up having her and her aunt come for every night. They would switch off every night for two months. And because I ended up going the formula route after five days, partly because I couldn't mentally do the breastfeeding and I needed to take the medicine, I slept at night. So I think having not slept, it really would have made it a lot worse.
Jen Schwartz: But yeah, it really wasn't until I would say Mason was six months old where I started to kind of see myself again. And then by a year, it was really when I felt like I love him, I love being a mom, I'm confident, I'm better. And now I'm five and a half years out, but I still have bad days. I still have lulls. I still take the antidepressants.
Jen Schwartz: But yeah, it was a marathon, not a sprint, and I wanted it to be a sprint, because, you know, like, you're just "Please make this stop. Make these feelings stop. Why can't I love my son? Why don't I want to spend time with him? Why can't I do any of this?" I wanted to be a mom. And it's horrible.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, it's agonizing. It's just agonizing. And you spoke to that feeling of being so alone.
Jen Schwartz: Right.
Jennifer Tracy: And ironically, that's such a universal symptom of postpartum depression is that feeling alone, feeling unique. And truthfully, it is one of the many reasons, though, that I started this podcast. And it has come up in several, almost every single interview, at some point, "I wish that I would have had something to listen to." I'm sure there was stuff. And I always say this, "I'm sure there were podcasts at the time, nine and a half years ago," but I didn't know about them. But I'm just so glad that you got the help, and it sounds like you're continuing on now on this path, because we do still need it. I mean, my son is nine and a half, going on 10, and I still go to therapy. I still take my antidepressants every day and I still have a self-care regimen and support groups that I go to, because I need to maintain my mental health, you know.
Jen Schwartz: Right. No, I think it's so true, and I think you really said it when you said you wished this podcast existed nine and a half years ago, which is probably a huge reason why you created it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Jen Schwartz: You created something that you needed. Sam for MOTHERHOOD-UNDERSTOOD. I mean, I think ... and I'm only five and a half years ago, so you're even four years further back than then, I felt at that time ... there were blogs and there were things, but I looked online. I looked, and I really felt like I couldn't find anything where there were like raw, intimate details from other moms. There were books by therapists, there were other things, but nothing I could relate to. And so I think when I ended up creating this community, it was kind of the community I was looking for.
Jen Schwartz: And it started with just a blog. When Mason was three, I launched a blog called "The Medicated Mommy," and that's how I started. And it really was just to talk about and write about those intimate, raw details that I couldn't find, because I really wanted other moms to know about this before they had their babies.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Jen Schwartz: You know?
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jen Schwartz: Like how great would it be if we lived in a world where a mom got PPD or PPA and it was like, "Um, I have postpartum depression," or "I have to call my doctor," you know what I mean? Like it was a routine, normal thing, just like, "Oh, I have the flu. I need to go see the doctor and find out what I need to do for it." But it's not like that, hence the we're also alone and we're also isolated. And I would have loved to know you five and a half years ago when I was struggling, but we don't.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Well, and a big piece of that, Jen, I think, is the shame surrounding that, like you said, and I love the way you articulated it. You thought that when you were pregnant ... I had the same thought, by the way, and I was never really a great cook. I've become a good cook, but I wasn't a good cook. And I'm not a real DIY person, either, but I love things that are pretty, and I love ... but I always ...
Jen Schwartz: Right.
Jennifer Tracy: I thought, "Oh, I'm going to magically transform into someone that floats on fairy dust and sings lullabys and-
Jen Schwartz: Exactly, exactly.
Jennifer Tracy: And I actually know ... A dear friend of mine, Marcy, who lives in Boston, does actually pretty much float on fairy wings.
Jen Schwartz: I have a friend like that, too.
Jennifer Tracy: She's just a mom who, she said, "Oh, you're going to love it." Her kids are older, and she said, "Every day's like Christmas." And she just called me. Her kids are teenagers now. And she's like, "I'm going to teach my unicorns and rainbows class," which she is, to little kids. She is that person.
Jen Schwartz: I love it.
Jennifer Tracy: And I would always think, "Well, gosh, why does she ..." That's rare. And I think it's dangerous, like you were saying, about this image that is projected to us on all of these social media sites of the perfection and the seamlessness and, "Oh, we're so happy and glowing and everything's perfect." And it's like, "Yeah, those moments are real, too." That's maybe 8% of the time.
Jen Schwartz: No, it's true. And I really do think that there are moms out there, like your friend, who really do-
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely.
Jen Schwartz: ... love it and take to it, and that's their world, and it is like Christmas every day and rainbows and unicorns. I think that they're the exception-
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, I agree.
Jen Schwartz: ... to the rule. I just think we don't know that, because everybody portrays themselves living like that, right, because they're ashamed, because they're ... and that doesn't mean that your friend doesn't struggle.
Jennifer Tracy: Right, exactly.
Jen Schwartz: Everybody struggles. It's just that ... and I think that portrayal really does us a disservice, because we think that there's something wrong with us when we don't live up to that expectation, and it is such an impossible expectation to reach, of the perfection, of all of that.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah. I had a friend, too, and she's one of my closest friends, and she has three kids and breastfed each other of them for a year, and just, she struggles and gets stressed, but she always, to me ... and she's my first friend to ever have a child, so her oldest now is in third grade, and she just always had it together or seemed like she got it. Even when she was struggling, she had it under control. And she is like Pinterest, amazing. I had a birthday luncheon yesterday, and she made me a unicorn cake. Like she made it.
Jennifer Tracy: That's incredible.
Jen Schwartz: It looks professional. It's on my Instagram Stories. I'm like, "What?"
Jennifer Tracy: That's amazing.
Jen Schwartz: I would have paid somebody to get a cake, and she's like, "No, I got this. I'm doing it."
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
Jen Schwartz: Right? And so I always joke with her that she ruins motherhood for me. I mean, we joke, but I really thought that I was going to be like that. I thought that that's what happens. And I think then when you ... like you said, it took you two and a half years to speak up, me, even though I spoke up, and I was pretty vocal, I remember thinking, "Oh, my God, I just became a mom. What are all my friends or all these new mom friends I made in Charlotte going to think about the fact that I just became a mom and I'm going to weekly therapy appointments and taking antidepressants for the first time in my life?"
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jen Schwartz: Like, "What are these people going to think of me?"
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jen Schwartz: And now, I could give a fuck. You know?
Jennifer Tracy: Right, exactly.
Jen Schwartz: Now, I own it, and I really try to help moms own it, too, because it's so common. We just don't know. But yeah, those thoughts. And I think the shame is a huge factor.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, it really is, which is why it's so great that we're talking about it here, and other people are talking about it.
Jennifer Tracy: So tell me more about MOTHERHOOD-UNDERSTOOD. So you started as a blog, and then what developed from there?
Jen Schwartz: So I started out as a blog called The Medicated Mommy, and I did that for, I guess, about almost two years. And I wanted to kind of go a little bit bigger than that and kind of be more of ... I guess I call myself a social media platform and community, and I kind of wanted to do that, because rather than kind of writing long stories, I almost wanted to just put quotes out. And so to me, Instagram kind of seemed like the most natural place to put memes out, but not those funny, "Let's make fun of our kids," absurdity of parenting memes, those kind of inner dark, scary thoughts that we all have and don't say, kind of unmasking that other side of motherhood, the uglier side, the messier side.
Jen Schwartz: And it just really started to resonate with moms, these little quotes and these little blurbs, "Oh, my God, that's happened to me. I've thought about that." And so it just kind of grew organically like that, and so I have kind of two missions. One, the commitment to take mental health, maternal mental health taboos, public, so all moms feel like they can do the same and no mom ever has to suffer in silence or not get the help that she needs, and the other part of it, which is kind of what I'm kind of veering into a little now that I have more of a reach and following, is I want to help brands talk to these moms, also.
Jen Schwartz: I think that a Pampers commercial should show a mom going to her first therapy appointment and using their product. Or a mom going to the pharmacy to pick up her antidepressant prescription while she's picking up some baby products. I think that this side of motherhood really should be included in mainstream media, and I think that it's gotten so much better. I mean, the fact that most of your guests talk about an experience, and there are so many blogs, and even mom bloggers who do focus on the happier side of motherhood still talk about their anxiety and things like that, that I really think one of the ways to really decrease the stigma and make, even normalize maternal mental health, is to gut it and mainstream on pop culture, in ad campaigns, movie characters, characters, and not just like an episode, but make these things the norm.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Jen Schwartz: And so that's kind of the other part of my mission, is really to kind of be a catalyst for change, kind of in the mainstream area, 'cause it's also ... I mean, this is 20% of new moms. I mean, that's close to a million moms a year that are not being spoken to and do not feel heard.
Jennifer Tracy: Totally. And I would guess, I mean, I don't know, I'm not a stats person, but I would just guess that it's more than that, because there's so many-
Jen Schwartz: Of course.
Jennifer Tracy: You know what I mean?
Jen Schwartz: Right. That's reported. That's reported, right.
Jennifer Tracy: So tell me how you're implementing that vision, because you have quite a following on your account, which is impressive, and you're doing all this cool stuff. So tell me what you're up to, because I'm just so inspired.
Jen Schwartz: I mean, I've only started to kind of I think branch out and kind of maybe delved into the influencer space now that I have a decent-size following. The first thing I've done is I worked with a company called WEGO Health, and they're really cool. They are a community of patient leaders, because they believe that if you have an illness or a disease, you want to hear from people who have gone through it, not just the doctor. So I've been working with them a lot on some postpartum depression content, and I helped them do some videos for a company called Sage Therapeutics, and Sage is ... they're waiting on FDA approval for the first ever postpartum depression-specific drug.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow. That's amazing.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah. It's really cool. And they had a campaign I think that came out last year, and it was a little provocative, and it really fell flat with moms. So I did some video content for that, and I have a few things coming up in 2019 that I'm not allowed to talk about or announce.
Jennifer Tracy: That's exciting. Okay. Very cool.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah, fairly good stuff. But so I think it's kind of ... right now I'm just trying to get my name out and get my message out a little bit more. That's why when I approach brands I can say look, "Here are 20% of new moms who don't experience this idyllic picture of motherhood that you're promoting in a campaign, which leaves 20% of new moms feeling guilty or shame, and they can't relate." And you got a mom's trust. You relate to them. They want what you have. And so that's kind of where I am with that.
Jen Schwartz: And this kind of came out of the fact that last ... Funny, last year in March, Brooke, who was your guest this past week, and I, were at a mom conference in LA, and we were watching a new campaign that was coming out by Carter's. And it was about the firsts. "You were there for all your firsts?" And I remember when it was over, I looked back at Brooke and I said, "Well, I feel guilty now, because I missed all those firsts. I didn't experience any of that." And I felt like there's got to be able to still do that, that stuff is still necessary, but somehow incorporate the other side.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Yeah, wow. That's profound, because you're right, that kind of leaves out a whole section of moms.
Jen Schwartz: Right. And in that room, we're 800 moms, and so 20% of those moms had some type of maternal mental health issue. That's 200 moms in that room that also could not relate necessarily to that ad, and I think that that needs to change.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. I love that. Wow.
Jennifer Tracy: So your son is five and a half?
Jen Schwartz: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Tracy: So is he in kindergarten now?
Jen Schwartz: He is, he's in kindergarten, yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: And what is that like for you? Has that been lovely having a little more time to work on this?
Jen Schwartz: Yeah, it's been great. So I have had a part-time nanny since he was six months old, partly because, again, when I sold myself that fairytale unicorn version of motherhood, I was going to do it all myself. I wasn't going to be working anymore, so ... and very quickly, we needed help during day anyway, because I couldn't be alone with him and my husband had to go back to work. So one of the night nurses ended up nannying for us during the day, and at six months, when I started to get better, we hired this amazing woman, Rene, and she came couple days a week. Besides some men, I don't have my mom down here or my mother-in-law, so she's been with us since Mason was six months old, and we stopped, we ended our contract with her right before he went to kindergarten.
Jen Schwartz: So that was a little heartbreaking and sad, because she's part of our family. I was really sad about that. I know it sounds funny, but I think the first week she wasn't here, I really had like post-nanny depression, which I know is kind of like a first-world problem, and-
Jennifer Tracy: It makes so much sense.
Jen Schwartz: But the first week I didn't have her, Mason was off from school for two days, because he goes to a Jewish day school, and there's like a million different Jewish holidays at the beginning of October, and I just like fell into this depression. And she left me a voicemail on WhatsApp, and I was listening to it in my car, and the waterworks, I just started hysterical. And then after that week I was better, so it's been a transition, but he goes to this amazing after-care, after-school program, where he goes to school, so I have a lot of time. I can pick him up as late as 6:00 o'clock if I want.
Jen Schwartz: It's great, and he loves it. The first day he was there, I went and I picked him up at 4:00, 'cause I'm like, "I work, but I don't work." And he said, "Mommy, why can't you come when all the other mommies come?" And I'm like, "Okay, you want me to come at 6:00 o'clock, I'll come at 6:00 o'clock. More time for me."
Jennifer Tracy: Wow, that's good.
Jen Schwartz: But yeah, it's good. So I have one. I'm totally a one-and-doner.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, me too.
Jen Schwartz: I knew very quickly that I wasn't having any more kids.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Do you-
Jen Schwartz: And part-
Jennifer Tracy: Go ahead. Sorry.
Jen Schwartz: No. I was going to say, and partly because of the PPD. I never want to go through that again. And you are at a 50% chance higher risk-
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, absolutely.
Jen Schwartz: ... if you've had it once.
Jen Schwartz: But I think, too, I felt like, even when he turned two and three, every time we hit a milestone and we got to pack the bottles up and buy sippy cups, and I kept them, and I had come so far, and I didn't want to go back. So I always say to people ... because people are judgy. [inaudible 00:36:11] judgy assholes, like, "How could you not give him a sibling?" And I always tell people, I say, "I chose to give my son a happy, healthy mom instead of a sibling."
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jen Schwartz: And they kind of ... their face kind of goes a little bit white, and they're like, "Okay," and they don't know what to say, and it shuts the whole conversation down.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Well, it's such a personal thing for people to comment.
Jen Schwartz: Of course.
Jennifer Tracy: I mean, it always floors me, too, when people comment to women who aren't mothers yet or maybe don't want to be, and people comment on, "When are you going to have a baby?" And it's like, "That is so presumptuous."
Jen Schwartz: It's none of your business.
Jennifer Tracy: It's none of your business, yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: So that's so great, because my son, it's very interesting, he wants to be with me all the time, so I have sort of the opposite thing where even now, at nine and a half, like he wants me to pick him up early from school. He does love his new ... He's in a new school now, and he loves his new school. But it's really interesting for me balancing that, "Of course I want to spend time with you and I love you and you're my angel, but mommy's got to work and mommy's got to have her alone time." And being a divorced mom, I'm very fortunate that my ex-husband, his dad, has him some of the time, and so I have that time to myself.
Jennifer Tracy: But I think it's so healthy when kids have other caregivers, like you had your nanny, Rene. That's so healthy for him to bond. And then it just speaks even more that he's like, "No, I want to stay and play." I think that's amazing, and win-win for you.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah, I'm really lucky in that. I feel like ... Well, I get it, though, and also, whenever he's like, "Play with me. Will you play with me?" And I know that if he had a sibling, he'd have a sibling. And I'm like, "Now I know why people have more kids, so they don't have to play with their kids. Their kids can play together."
Jen Schwartz: But no, it is hard. I think that, again, I was lucky, but I think that all of this was forced upon me. I was forced to let other people take care of him. I was forced to stay in bed and take care of my health. And so I think, luckily, that kind of made him, I guess, independent and resilient in that way, because whether it was our nanny or the night nurse or my husband or my mom or my father-in-law who lives in Charlotte, watched him, he's always been really good about going into a new place or a school.
Jen Schwartz: He also likes to be the center of attention. You never want to give my child a microphone. You won't get it back. And I know where he gets it from. It's not my husband.
Jen Schwartz: But, so I have, I've been lucky. But no, moms need their own time. And you can love your son and also not want to be with your son for six hours-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, absolutely.
Jen Schwartz: .. at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. And I think that's another important message, too, is that ... which also, it comes with motherhood no matter what, but also with a mental health illness, like with depression or anxiety, is your identity as mom. I think part of the reason why I got sick so quickly is because what I thought my identity as a mom would be, it was nothing like that, and it sent my body interest such shock.
Jen Schwartz: I mean, yeah, I remember sitting at my therapist's office complaining that, "I thought I was going to be a mom like my mother-in-law. She's like Martha Stewart, all this stuff, and I'm more like, I don't want to make crafts and I don't want to ..." And she said, "Jen, fuck all those other moms. You are you.
Jennifer Tracy: I love her.
Jen Schwartz: Right? And she did. I know. She's awesome. And it took me a while to kind of come around on that, but she was, she said that, and she said, "You are you. That's enough. You're not this mom. You're not that mom. You are just you."
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Jen Schwartz: And I still talk about that, because I think it's such an important message. It goes along with the perfectionist, the comparing.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. God, and the pressure we put on ourselves.
Jen Schwartz: I know.
Jennifer Tracy: And it's so deep in us from childhood, I guess, just that idea of this construct of what a woman is, what a wife is, what a mom is, what a lover is. It's like we're not allowed the freedom, or I wasn't, I should speak for myself, to define it for myself.
Jen Schwartz: Right. And you don't know to.
Jennifer Tracy: And I didn't know to. I didn't know to until I was 40. You know what I mean? Really, like till my late 30s.
Jen Schwartz: Well, right. Until I had PPD, I had no clue. So I always say, "I'm really grateful for my postpartum depression. I wouldn't trade my experience," because I have this whole identity and voice and purpose because of it. And before motherhood, I went from career to career. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to write. I knew I liked more of the creative space. But right, you don't know. You don't know that before you're ... the pre-Jen and Jennifer woman and post motherhood women are different.
Jennifer Tracy: So different.
Jen Schwartz: So how can you know who you are until you become a mother, if that's what you're going to do?
Jennifer Tracy: Right, right, yeah. It's so true.
Jen Schwartz: Which is why I love the MILF Podcast, because you're completely redefining such a common ... you know, a common term that's thrown around, for how you want it to be.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Thank you. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Well, and I talk about this on the show often, is sexuality was a big part of that redefining or just newly defining it for me, because I didn't ... I just wasn't even really in touch with my own sexuality before, and I couldn't have been, because I didn't sort of go to these depths before that I had. And I had had depression. I have suffered from depression pretty much my whole life, and I was treated for depression before I got pregnant, which then I learned also put me at a higher risk for having postpartum, which makes it even crazier that I didn't ask for help. But that just shows you how strong this idea of, "Oh, I can lick this myself ..." There's something in us that just is like, "No, I don't need to go back on meds." I'd already been on meds and they had already worked for me previously, and I still didn't want to go that route. It's just amazing to me, the strength of that old idea.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow. Well, it's so great to talk to you, and I can't wait to see what you do in 2019-
Jen Schwartz: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: ... with these exciting projects.
Jen Schwartz: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: Happy belated birthday.
Jen Schwartz: Oh, thank you. It was the 17th, but two of my friends hosted ... It was really a great idea. It was a girl's night out, but at lunchtime.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, perfect.
Jen Schwartz: So it was from 11:00 to 2:00. One of my friends had a guitar player come, so there was a guitar player playing like Tom Petty and Billy Joel, and everybody brought food, and there was wine and champagne, and the amazing unicorn cake.
Jennifer Tracy: That's incredible.
Jen Schwartz: 'Cause I do love unicorns. I don't believe unicorns have a place in motherhood, but I do have an obsession with unicorns outside of motherhood.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. I love it, I love it.
Jennifer Tracy: So we've come to the time in the interview where I ask you the three questions I ask every guest, and then we're going to go into like a fun lightning round of questions.
Jen Schwartz: Okay, awesome.
Jennifer Tracy: So the first question, Jen, is, what do you think about when you hear the word "MILF"?
Jen Schwartz: I still think of "The Mom I'd Like to Fuck," but also, I have socks. I have these red knee-high socks and they say "MILF" on the bottom.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God, that's amazing.
Jen Schwartz: They say "MILF", and they're ... what is it, like Arthur George, like Rob Kardashian had a sock company for like 10 minutes?
Jennifer Tracy: No way. I didn't know this.
Jen Schwartz: Yes. I know. And I think Kris had to buy it from him, because it made no money or something, and I do, I have these red socks that go up to almost my knee, and on the bottom they say "MILF".
Jennifer Tracy: That is incredible, and I might have to steal it and make something for my-
Jen Schwartz: I think you need MILF. I would wear it all.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, okay.
Jennifer Tracy: What is something you've changed your mind about recently?
Jen Schwartz: Diets.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. Say more.
Jen Schwartz: So I have been struggling to drop weight lately and just have put it on and things like that, and I am such a yo-yo dieter, I've done every diet on the planet, and I think after doing kind of a lot of personal development work in certain workshops, I think ... And the fact that like 98% of diets fail, anyway, I think that it's more ... It's about self-love. It's not about diets and it's not about the food. It's about really shifting your mindset that you're enough and that you love yourself, and you show yourself on our body love by making healthy choices and stuff like that. So I'm trying to shift in that space, versus just like, "I'm never eating sugar again," because that doesn't work.
Jennifer Tracy: Right, right, yeah. That doesn't work for me. I love that philosophy. That's a good one. Really healthy.
Jennifer Tracy: How do you define success?
Jen Schwartz: I think success is when you wake up every morning and you're excited to wake up and start your day, because your day is filled with doing things that you love.
Jennifer Tracy: Agreed, 100%.
Jennifer Tracy: Round of questions. Ocean or desert?
Jen Schwartz: Ocean.
Jennifer Tracy: Favorite junk food?
Jen Schwartz: A really good soft, melty, chocolate chip cookie.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Movies or Broadway show?
Jen Schwartz: That's really tough. Can I say both? I can't choose between them.
Jennifer Tracy: You can say whatever you want. There's not right-
Jen Schwartz: I can't choose. I can't choose.
Jennifer Tracy: Daytime sex or nighttime sex?
Jen Schwartz: Daytime.
Jennifer Tracy: Texting or talking?
Jen Schwartz: I love to talk, but at this point in my life, when I'm a mom and so busy, texting for sure.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Cat person or dog person?
Jen Schwartz: 100% dog person.
Jennifer Tracy: Have you ever worn a unitard?
Jen Schwartz: No, I haven't.
Jennifer Tracy: Shower or bathtub?
Jen Schwartz: Shower for the most part, and then I feel like at spa, a hotel, when there is that bathtub, that freestanding tub in front of you, a really relaxing bubble bath, for sure.
Jennifer Tracy: Ice cream or chocolate?
Jen Schwartz: Ice cream.
Jennifer Tracy: On a scale of one to 10, how good are you at ping-pong?
Jen Schwartz: Maybe like a four, four and a half.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. What's your biggest pet peeve?
Jen Schwartz: When people don't follow directions that are right in front of them. You know, like somebody asks a question somewhere and literally they were just told the answer, but they still ask them, it makes me crazy. And I think part of it is from being a teacher, because I would teach middle school, and they would ask the same questions over and over again. And I could write the answers to the test on the board, and some of them would still fail. So it's like, "Just read the directions, please." I think that's ... yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: If you could push a button and it would create 10 years of world peace, but it would also place a 100-year ban on all beauty products, would you push it?
Jen Schwartz: Yeah, I think I'd push it.
Jennifer Tracy: Super-power choice: invisibility, ability to fly, and I'm going to add one, super-strength. Which do you choose?
Jen Schwartz: I feel like I already have super-strength, maybe not physically, but mentally, and I ... definitely invisibility.
Jennifer Tracy: Would you rather have six fingers on both hands or a belly button that looks like foreskin?
Jen Schwartz: I think a belly button, because you don't see your belly button every day, but your hands, like everyone sees your ... and I talk with my hands. I would be talking, and somebody would be like, "Does that girl have 12 fingers?" Yeah, I'll do the belly ... right.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. What was the name of your first pet?
Jen Schwartz: This is really embarrassing. "Whipped Cream" was the name of my first dog. I was seven years old. It was a white West Highland Terrier.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, I love those.
Jen Schwartz: It was so cute. And I had been begging for a dog, and I was at sleep-away camp, and on visiting day, my parents surprised me and said, "We got a dog. Here is a picture. What do you want to name her?" And they put me on the spot, and I couldn't think of anything, and I just said, "Whipped Cream." And we called her Whippy. And the funniest thing is that I hate whipped cream. I don't like whipped cream or custard or anything with that ... yogurt, except for frozen yogurt. I don't like anything with that texture. But her name was ... Whippy, we called her.
Jennifer Tracy: Whippy.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah. Now my dog's name is Harry Potter, and that's-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that's fantastic.
Jennifer Tracy: And what was the name of the street you grew up on?
Jen Schwartz: Sandstone Trail.
Jennifer Tracy: So your poor name is Whippy Sandstone.
Jen Schwartz: Whippy Sandstone. Not bad.
Jennifer Tracy: That's kind of hot.
Jen Schwartz: Not bad. The best part ... Well, my husband's poor name is Samuel Adams.
Jennifer Tracy: No, it's not.
Jen Schwartz: Which I think is awesome. And well, that's if you do middle name and street, is Samuel Adams. And then one of my closest friends, hers is Heidi Deepwood. Those are the two best I've ever heard.
Jennifer Tracy: I don't know, Whippy Sandstone?
Jen Schwartz: Yeah, that's pretty good.
Jennifer Tracy: That's really good.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah, that's pretty good.
Jennifer Tracy: We could spin some yarns about her.
Jen Schwartz: Yeah, we could work with that.
Jennifer Tracy: What she's doing in her life.
Jen Schwartz: Whippy Sandstone's going to need a unitard, probably.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, she is. Yes, she is.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, Jen, it's been such a treat having you on the show. Thank you so much.
Jen Schwartz: Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Tracy: Thanks so much for listening, guys, I really hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jen.
Jennifer Tracy: And tune in next week, when I will be interviewing Catherine McCord of Weelicious. I got to sit down with her in her beautiful home and have an amazing conversation with her. She reminded me when I walked in, she's like, "We actually know each other." I was like, "What?" Such an amazing spirit, so warm and lovely.
Jennifer Tracy: And just a quick reminder, go ahead and write a review on iTunes. For every iTunes review I get this month, I will be donating $3 to Every Mother Counts, which is an incredible organization founded by Christy Turlington Burns, after she made a film about it, giving maternity care for women all around the world. It's an incredible place and organization.
Jennifer Tracy: So do that. I just love you guys so much. Have a great and happy holiday, and be gentle with yourself.