MJ Grant: I was very settled into motherhood. I mean, at a very young age, I just felt like it was a very natural thing for me. And I think when I turned 21 and then discovered there's this whole other world out there, that's when it became difficult because my friends were having fun. It was sort of out of sight, out of mind for the first couple of years of being a mom because my friends were in college and I just focused on my life here in town. And we were renting a house and I had this part-time job and really happy just being home and being a mom, and I thought that that would be it for me.
MJ Grant: I just remember vividly going out into the Old Port in Portland, Maine, which is a fabulous little city, and realizing there's this whole other life that I had never been exposed to. That was when it became hard for me because my friends continued to have fun, and I always had to balance it.
Speaker 2: You're listening to the MILF podcast. This is the show where we talk about motherhood and sexuality with amazing women with fascinating stories to share on the joys of being a MILF. Now, here's your host, the MILFiest MILF I know, Jennifer Tracy.
Jennifer Tracy: Hey, guys. Welcome back to the show. This is MILF podcast, the show where we talk about motherhood, entrepreneurship, sexuality, and everything in-between. I'm Jennifer Tracy, your host. Welcome back, you guys. Oh my gosh. I'm still high from the live show. It was so much fun, and I can't wait to do the next one. I'm already making plans. Yeah, it was just so much fun. Christina Grance and all the other dancers who came to pole dance blew everyone's minds. It was pretty epic.
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Jennifer Tracy: And today on the show we have the beautiful, the amazing MJ Grant. One of the things that is such a gift for me about doing this show is that I've gotten to meet women that I would normally never get to connect with. I've met women from all over the world, Australia, London. MJ is on the other side of the US, and if it weren't for the incredible, amazing Jennifer Pastiloff, who referred MJ to me, I don't know that we would have connected. And we did, and I just love her so much. She's just this incredible, passionate, alive, vibrant woman with so much wisdom to share and so much depth. I know you're going to love this episode. So please enjoy my talk with MJ Grant. Hi, MJ.
MJ Grant: Hello. How are you?
Jennifer Tracy: I'm good. How are you? Thanks so much for being on the show.
MJ Grant: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to meet you. I feel like I know you.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh.
MJ Grant: Yeah. I've been watching your stuff and following you on Insta, and I just love you. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. Thank you. Well, I love you too. We met through Jen Pastiloff, which is amazing. She had messaged me and said, "Get this woman on your show." And I reached out to you right away, and you responded, "Yes." And I was so thrilled.
MJ Grant: Yeah, that was really wonderful. Jen's wonderful. She's great with connecting people. I'm glad we met.
Jennifer Tracy: She's amazing. Oh my God, yeah, she really is.
MJ Grant: Yeah. She's wonderful.
Jennifer Tracy: First of all, what does MJ stand for?
MJ Grant: Mary Jane.
Jennifer Tracy: Mary Jane. Okay. I figured. And where are you from originally?
MJ Grant: Maine. I actually live in the same town I grew up in, Sanford, Maine.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, wow. Oh, wow. That's unusual. I mean, these days. Usually, most people migrate elsewhere.
MJ Grant: Oh, I know. I've been a mom though since I was 19, so I really couldn't go anywhere. So I settled here in town. And a lot of people who grew up here tend to stay here.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. So you ... Wow. So tell me about that. You became a mom at 19.
MJ Grant: Right? Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: What was that like? How did it happen? I mean, I know how it happened, but the logistics of it.
MJ Grant: Yeah. I fell in love in high school, and he was older than I am, or I was, and he's still older, obviously. But he was my first love, and I'll tell you, it's like the moment I felt that, that was it. It was like an addiction. It was like ... And I'm not with him at this point, but we still are in each other's lives. My son is 24.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
MJ Grant: And yeah. I don't know. We did not plan on having a child. That was not the plan. In fact, after high school, I had moved to Rhode Island and worked for the summer and thought I was going to settle down there and go to college and all that stuff. And then I just felt like I needed to be back here, and I came back home and we continued our relationship. And a few months later, I was pregnant. So that defined my path for a long time.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, I'll say. Yeah.
MJ Grant: For a really long time. While all my friends were going off to college, I was having a baby.
Jennifer Tracy: And what was that like, being the only one of your friends that was a mother, a new mother?
MJ Grant: Well, at first, it was really wonderful because I was very settled into motherhood. I mean, at a very young age, I just felt like it was a very natural thing for me. And I think when I turned 21 and then discovered there's this whole other world out there, that's when it became difficult because my friends were having fun. It was sort of out of sight, out of mind for the first couple of years of being a mom because my friends were in college and I just focused on my life here in town. And we were renting a house and I had this part-time job and really happy just being home and being a mom, and I thought that that would be it for me.
MJ Grant: I just remember vividly going out into the Old Port in Portland, Maine, which is a fabulous little city, and realizing there's this whole other life that I had never been exposed to. That was when it became hard for me because my friends continued to have fun, and I always had to balance it. And I have this addictive personality, and so I was addicted to love and addicted to something. I have hyperfocus stuff going on. So once I get into something, I get very hyperfocused. So I could not do all of the stuff my friends were doing because I had to be home and be a mom.
MJ Grant: And at that point, it was the split for me in my relationship because I realized I am not going to ... this is not my existence forever. I can't ... I mean, being with the same person since I was 16 years old, and it was like I just saw a different path for me. So we split off, but obviously, we're still co-parented, and I spent the next few years floundering and trying to balance life and being able to have fun, balance with work, balance with being a mom and trying not to feel guilty. So I look back at those years and the guilt was real. Oh my God. [crosstalk 00:07:59]
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Tell me more about that. So when you say guilt, guilt over what specifically?
MJ Grant: When I had my son, I thought, "This is it. I'm going to be that stay-at-home mom, work a few hours a week, just continue to have more children, get married." And then my path changed. I just had a really hard time with the idea of ... When he was with his father, I would go out. And then the next day, I'd be exhausted and then he'd come back to my house and I'd have to be a mom, and I'm tired. I wanted to go out. I wanted to have fun. I want to start a career. I didn't go to college. "What am I going to do?"
MJ Grant: It was like I was just confused, and I really looked up to some amazing moms who were just settled in their lives, and I didn't feel settled at all. But I loved being a mom, so it was like, "Why can't I just make this my whole life?" I grappled with that for years and [crosstalk 00:08:53]
Jennifer Tracy: So you felt guilty because you were deviating from your original idea of what you thought it was going to be.
MJ Grant: Of course.
Jennifer Tracy: So you basically you felt guilty for being authentic to yourself.
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:09:06]
Jennifer Tracy: I'm just saying that because I think so many people need to hear that. It's like-
MJ Grant: Absolutely.
Jennifer Tracy: And Jen has said this too. You're allowed to change your mind, but we're not really taught that.
MJ Grant: We are not.
Jennifer Tracy: So I think that's so interesting. And what changed for you, or did it change, that you were able to ... not make peace with it but just go forward with this new vision of life for yourself? Did some event happen or-
MJ Grant: It was not one event. It was a series of events. It was a series of heartache and just a lot of really pushing through different obstacles. I mean, I'm 44 now, and I can look back ... I have a very close relationship with my son. I now have four children, ranging from 24 to 5. So my 5-year-old daughter, she's like the grandchild of the family. But I look back, and it was just a matter of going through ... I'm like a butterfly, I guess, and maybe even a hummingbird. I know that ... What is it? Elizabeth who wrote Eat, Pray, Love. Yeah, Gilbert-
Jennifer Tracy: Gilbert?
MJ Grant: That butterfly ... the hummingbird or jackhammer. And I'm the hummingbird, so I dabble in things. And I feel a little bit like a butterfly in ways, but I felt like I needed to stay grounded in this town, in this house. I've been in this house since my son was a baby, moved out for a little bit, but then came back in this house and purchased it, so it's mine. It's been mine ever since, but I think going through a series of relationships, more children, establishing myself as a professional, establishing my career, still managing to balance fun with career with being a mom with being able to travel and navigating through all of that, it hasn't been easy.
MJ Grant: And I think recently over the past ... I feel like over the past few years, it feels as if the floodgates opened and everything I locked inside of me, the guilt and all of those things, just came flooding open. I can't describe it as anything other than a process of expanding and accepting and acknowledging and all of that stuff [crosstalk 00:11:39] things I'm not proud of. And I've talked openly with my son since he's been very young, and we talked about, "What was it like for you being young with a mom who was still trying to figure things out?" I never ran into addiction issues or things like that. It wasn't like that. It was just a lot of, "I should be this way, but I'm this way," and, "Oh, gosh. What's the perception of me, and what do people think about me?" And it was a lot of fear around worrying about what people thought.
MJ Grant: I've sort of going through a metamorphosis. Something came up for me last year that brought things up for me again in terms of my shame. I felt shame around not being with the same man for all those years, not having the same father for the children, and a lot of shame. And it was very clear to me that I had not resolved the shame I felt years ago because it came back up after years of not feeling it. And that started this journey. But yeah, I don't know. A lot of heartache and hard knocks. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Well, I mean, and it sounds like within that, you've found a career that you-
MJ Grant: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: And what is the career?
MJ Grant: I'm a sign language interpreter. I started doing that when I was 21 when I had to because my partner and I had split up, and I was a single mom. So you got to do this.
Jennifer Tracy: But the reason that you are a sign language interpreter is very interesting because your mom is deaf.
MJ Grant: Yeah. Both of my parents are.
Jennifer Tracy: Both of your parents are deaf. So you were raised with this, and are you an only child? Do you have siblings?
MJ Grant: No. I have an older sister. She's-
Jennifer Tracy: An older sister.
MJ Grant: ... a year and a half older. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. So being raised in that kind of environment, and your mom ... I want to meet your mom. I can't wait to meet your mom one day. I want to come to Maine and just meet her because-
MJ Grant: Yes. Please do.
Jennifer Tracy: ... when I see the videos of the two of you, and there was one of you guys walking on the path with your daughter. She had the bike. And you said, "Somehow, I got the bike and the basket and the ... and they're off running and having fun." But it was so sweet, and so ...
Jennifer Tracy: So what was it like growing in an environment where ... I mean, you just learned sign language probably from the time you could talk and walk and it was like a second language for you.
MJ Grant: It's part of my first. So it's a hodge-podge of language I guess I grew up with. There was some spoken language because we had been around daycare or whatnot and watched Sesame Street. But yeah, sign language was the primary language used in our home, so really I grew up with both.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. And so then you just became ... not just. Then you became a sign language interpreter out of necessity because you were like, "I need to make a living and I have this skill."
MJ Grant: Well, I actually always wanted to be one.
Jennifer Tracy: You did? Okay. Interesting.
MJ Grant: Yeah. And back in the day, back in the day, I never really saw sign language interpreters so I don't really know where the idea came from, but because it was just a natural thing for me to always interpret for my parents growing up. I started interpreting for them when I was pretty much at the point in which I could talk, making phone calls for them.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
MJ Grant: There weren't video phones back then and it was tough for them to use the TTY relay service, and it was slow and easier to just have your kids do it for you. So I did a lot of that growing up. But I always wanted to be an interpreter or a singer. I just can't sing, so that's a problem. And my parents were so encouraging. They're like, "Yes, you go. You try." And it's like, "Oh, you can't hear my voice." But I really was like, "I'm going on Star Search." [crosstalk 00:15:31]
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my God. Star Search. Star Search. I forgot about Star Search. Oh my God. I love it. I love it.
MJ Grant: Oh, gosh. So I had never really seen an interpreter. But in high school, I explored some options for interpreter training programs and then I don't know why I didn't just go for it then. I just wanted to do my own thing, go on my own path. But yeah, so at 21, I called a deaf school, and I'm like, "Do you guys need volunteers or something?" I wanted to get into figuring out how I could become an interpreter, and they happened to have a superintendent at the time who was the first deaf superintendent ever hired. And he said, "Actually, I'm looking for an interpreter, somebody who is my designated interpreter." And I'm like, "Well, I don't have any training." But I got hired, and don't ask my why. I was really lucky. He was able to train me a little bit as we went along. He was wonderful to work with, and I was fortunate enough to work with a lot of other professional interpreters who were willing to work with somebody who had zero training-
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
MJ Grant: ... but had a good attitude and had grown up using sign language. So back then, that was how you came into the field.
Jennifer Tracy: Interesting.
MJ Grant: And now it's different. But I got lucky in that way, and I just had a lot of ... It was the right timing for a lot of things and how I got into it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, and you just continued on. Did you work at the school?
MJ Grant: I work at the deaf school for a while, yeah, and then I moved on and started interpreting in a public school setting where they had one deaf child, and that was slightly depressing and hard to watch and wonderful at the same time because it afforded me the opportunity to continue to practice and hone in on my skills, my storytelling skills and ASL, because there's a lot of stories being read when you're in kindergarten. But I was that child's language model. And so it was like, yeah, there's a lot of pressure for that and isolation. You see when you're the only ... You're witnessing one deaf child in an environment where they're all hearing and so good. And then I decided to freelance and was welcomed into the community. They opened their arms to me, and they took me under their wing. And I freelanced, and then years later, I had been an interpreter for several years, I decided to open up my own referral service and have been doing that for almost 10 years now. So establishing my career, it just continues. It just keeps going, and I think [crosstalk 00:18:11]
Jennifer Tracy: It's evolving. Yeah.
MJ Grant: Yeah. Everything's really been good.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. That's amazing. And somewhere along there, you met someone who ... Are you still with the father of your-
MJ Grant: I'm with my husband, Jesse, yes, and he's-
Jennifer Tracy: Jesse.
MJ Grant: Yes. Yeah, we actually went to high school together.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my gosh.
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:18:28] isn't that so-
Jennifer Tracy: I love that.
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:18:31] small town stuff. It's so cute.
Jennifer Tracy: But it makes sense when you live in a smaller town. I mean, it just makes sense. And there's something nice about that. I think there's something really comforting about that-
MJ Grant: There is [crosstalk 00:18:42]
Jennifer Tracy: ... to know someone's roots.
MJ Grant: We were friends in high school. We used to hang out, and we hung with the same crowd, and yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: And so then you guys started a family.
MJ Grant: Yeah, we started our family. Jesse and I have Alana together. He hadn't had children, and so I was done having children because clearly I wasn't successful at having a relationship for more than five years at a time. I think what I had this habit of doing was just painting this picture on somebody I would meet, and I would say, "This is what I need," right? I mean, how many of us-
Jennifer Tracy: I think so many people can relate to that. I mean-
MJ Grant: Oh, yeah, right? This is what I need.
Jennifer Tracy: ... projection.
MJ Grant: Oh, incredible. And then when it was like, "Wait a minute. You're not what I painted you to be. Why [crosstalk 00:19:35] and then you go through the years of struggle of trying to make them that way and that-
Jennifer Tracy: Totally. Totally.
MJ Grant: And that's been a lot of the ... that's been a huge part of my path. Love is an overarching theme in my life, and it's been really interesting. It's been an interesting journey in that way, and so Jesse and I, we connected about 10 years ago. We connected after not seeing each other for years, and at that point, it was like there was no ... I had no intentions of ever marrying again. I had been married once, and I had no intentions of ever getting married again. It was like, "Clearly, I'm not good at this. I have issues. I'm not able to make it last. I keep doing the same thing." And then that shifted for me. It shifted.
MJ Grant: It took a while. We were together for about four or five years before we got married, and he's been wonderful, and we're friends. That's the thing. And it hasn't come without hardship. I mean, trust me, you have to work at not repeating cycles, and that's what's been growth for me.
Jennifer Tracy: So is that what you attribute the change to is just-
MJ Grant: Yes. Absolutely. It's easy to fall back into the same cycle, and it's easy to create the same story, and it's easy ... But at some point, you have to say to yourself, "Okay. What is this about?" And I used to define it superficially and now it's like, "No, this is real. I have to go back. I have to go ... " So I've been going through a process. I have an amazing spiritual counselor, life coach, guide who's in Canada, and we Zoom every week. And talk about breaking open. I mean, it's really, to go back to even infancy. Some people don't buy into that, but it's true. You really have to go back and open those doors that you've locked up because it stays in you. So I'm unlocking doors, and in doing so, it's been incredible.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, and just to speak to the emotion that's coming up now, it's so resonant and deep in our bodies, these things that are part of our tapestry, that are part of our cellular makeup from the time that we're born. And you're so right. If it doesn't move somewhere, then it does stay stuck. But it doesn't go away, and it's going to bubble up at some point. It's just a matter of what match is going to light that flame that's going to set that thing on fire, and then you're going to go, "Ah, that's on fire."
MJ Grant: There it is again. Oh my gosh. Yeah [crosstalk 00:22:33]
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's so great that you found a coach. I mean, I'm such a big, big, big, big, big advocate of outside help, and for me, that encompasses whatever works for the person. If it's traditional talk therapy, if it's Kundalini yoga, if it's a life coach, if it's ... I mean, all those things are wonderful, and I think it's just clicking into what works for you and-
MJ Grant: Absolutely.
Jennifer Tracy: So, I think that's so wonderful and to find that person that can witness you and hold space for you and help you open the thing and feel safe.
MJ Grant: Right, and it feels cheesy. At first, you feel cheesy, like, "I'm honoring the little girl who had a need that wasn't ... " It feels cheesy, but when you allow yourself to go through that process, it's pretty miraculous and you just ... I feel like I'm expanding more and more, and I look back on the women I've connected with throughout my life. In the field I work in, we have many, many women who practice yoga and meditation, and they're just really evolved human beings, and they like to talk life, deep stuff. And I really, I need that. I've always needed that.
MJ Grant: I've always been a curious person, and so I really connected to very strong women throughout my career as an interpreter. So they were a huge help for me along the way. But if I hadn't, I don't really know if I could do this process the way I'm doing it now. It just feels a little bit like woo-woo stuff. People make fun of that, and how embraced is that really in the greater society? I think it's more embraced now, but maybe not so much where I am. I'm not quite sure. I think sometimes I don't necessarily ... There are times I feel like I don't fit with ... I mean, when people aren't willing to go there and they think, "She's too deep. She's too intense. [crosstalk 00:24:42] like, "Oh, God. Okay, there she is. She's having that deep conversation with somebody again." But it's-
Jennifer Tracy: Sure. Sure. Well, and it sounds like you're drawing to you ... I mean, just this conversation is evidence that you're drawing to you the depth that you need to experience. And I just want to circle back for a minute to when we started the conversation and you were describing yourself as a young mother and that feeling of, "Oh, I shouldn't be this way. I should be this way." It feels like you're carving out a new path in that regard of, "No, I actually am this way, and I'm going to just be this way."
MJ Grant: Yes. Yes, yes.
Jennifer Tracy: "And you're either on board with it or you're not, and it's okay, and I'm just going to ... " And there's something so freeing in that. And I know for me, and part of the reason I started the podcast and also just in experience in talking to all the amazing women I've spoken with, something happens in, I don't know, your late 30s, early 40s ... and this is a generalization, but to where it's like you kind of just say, "Fuck that." You know what I mean?
MJ Grant: Yes. Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: "Fuck that. I have a voice. I have a point of view that's mine, and it's valid and it's worthy."
MJ Grant: And it's okay. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: And it helps people, and it's okay.
MJ Grant: It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work for me to get there, I think on a number of levels. It's complicated for me because I'm part of two worlds. I grew up in the deaf world, and I also grew up in the hearing world. And so I'm constantly being mindful of honoring both and not offending one or the other and not ... and wanting to show my solidarity to both. And that has really, I think, in some ways been good fertilizer, good material for growth. And in other ways, it's also continues to be a barrier in some ways, and it still is that fear of, "Okay ... " because I know once I let go, the moment I let go, I genuinely feel like an eagle.
MJ Grant: I mean, I'm just like ... And it's incredible, and then ... what is that? Foreboding joy. Then all of the sudden you have this moment of ... "Oh, I can't. Oh, no. I shouldn't celebrate that [inaudible 00:27:18] no. I can't celebrate that." So it's this process I'm going through of, "Yes, you should. You celebrate who you are in all of your beauty because you really are. You're amazing." But no, oh, that's really arrogant [crosstalk 00:27:33]
Jennifer Tracy: And it's those perceived limitations that really stop us from going for whatever it is, and I think it's ... I'm just going to use an example from my real life. Not my fake life, my real life. From my own life is what I meant to say. So my son struggles with anxiety quite a bit, and it was okay for a while and then it's rearing its head again. And he's so brave, so amazing. He'll be 10 in July, so he's 9. Oftentimes, we have these deep conversations at bedtime. He wants to crawl into bed after he's done all of his 80 jumping jacks, like he's got to move around and get all the energy out. And then he gets in bed. He says, "Let's talk, Mom."
Jennifer Tracy: And the other night, he had a breakdown and he said, "I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm broken. I don't want to go to school, but I know it's a good school." He couldn't figure it out, and it was that moment of, "I don't want to feel this way because I don't think anyone else feels this way, and it's not okay for me to feel this way." And I feel so grateful that ... And this is in no way being like, "Oh, I'm a good parent," or whatever. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just sharing this experience for other parents who might be going through this or that they can apply it to themselves.
Jennifer Tracy: I had the wherewithal to say, "You're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. Everything you're feeling is okay and normal. And in fact, it's good because it's leading you to yourself and to the solution, and I'm here to support you in finding a solution." And I said, "Would you be willing to go see your therapist again," because he had a therapist before. And he said, "Oh, I would. Maybe that would help." And I said, "Great. I'll call her."
Jennifer Tracy: And anyway, we went to her yesterday, and it was immensely helpful and uncomfortable for him, also uncomfortable. But it's like that's the stuff, is sitting with our partners, sitting with our children, sitting with our friends, sitting with our coworkers in the discomfort and saying, "This is okay. This is part of it," instead of, "Oh, clean that up really fast. Clean it up-
MJ Grant: Oh, God.
Jennifer Tracy: ... I don't want anyone to see that." You know what I mean?
MJ Grant: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I went through that phase too. I went through the phase of cleaning it up. You got to be positive. It's all in your mind and all of these things. And it's like, yes, it's in our mind, but it's because it's locked in our bodies because there's something that we're holding. And so to have somebody hold that space for you is really wonderful and if we could do that for everyone and people could do that for us, just hold that space and honor it and not have an expectation. I've had to let go of expectations. I mean, why should I hold an expectation of my children to do something that I did not do myself? So I'm going to sit with them, and I'm going to walk their path with them and allow them to guide the walk and-
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely.
MJ Grant: ... be there to support them. But you say it's not to say you're a good mom. You are a good mom, and we're all doing the best we can. And I think my oldest son, Shane, has seen all of my stages, the stage where it was like I did the prescribed parenting. "Oh, you're supposed to discipline this way," or I tried the Ferber method, let the baby cry it out. And then I went through the, "Oh, everything is just Pollyanna and just wonderful and [inaudible 00:31:08] hello [inaudible 00:31:10]. Okay. You can make yourself feel amazing by just telling yourself you're amazing."
MJ Grant: So he's seen me go through all of these stages and this one by far has him calling me the most and saying, "Mom, I need your ear. I need your ear. Mom, I know when I call you ... " and I feel so honored that he says this. "I know when I call you, you're going to help me get to that space of ... " It's like clarity. And that ...
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
MJ Grant: Are you kidding me? I will do the-
Jennifer Tracy: That's everything.
MJ Grant: Exactly. I would go through the same thing all over again, all of the heartache and all the turmoil and the guilt and all of that to hear that.
Jennifer Tracy: Totally.
MJ Grant: Because he's 24, and I wasn't saying that at 24 to my mother, and-
Jennifer Tracy: No. Me neither.
MJ Grant: Right. Right.
Jennifer Tracy: I don't say it now to my [inaudible 00:32:07]
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:32:07]
Jennifer Tracy: I love my mom so deeply, and I go to her for other things, and she is the most gentle, kind, loving person. I mean, I just adore my mom, and I don't have inappropriate expectations on her. I love her exactly as she is, but like you, I would put these expectations on people. I mean, I did it to my ex-husband, and it doesn't ... But I had to go through that, like you were saying. I just had to go through this path and have the disappointments and have the discomfort in order to grow. And I think that's so crucial to hear, and it's like my son with his discomfort, and it's like you going through all these different things and the different relationships. That has to happen for growth. There's no-
MJ Grant: It does.
Jennifer Tracy: I think we're just sold this rotten bill of goods that, "Well, if you're very attractive and you're very ... If you just get everything clean and in a row and you have the right clothes and everything, you will never feel pain. Buy this product, and you will never feel pain." It's like-
MJ Grant: Oh, it's incredible.
Jennifer Tracy: ... "No, you're going to feel pain. It's just part of the human experience." Jen's book, On Being Human, it's like-
MJ Grant: Oh, what a gift.
Jennifer Tracy: ... that's part of it.
MJ Grant: What a gift that is. I mean, and perfect timing. I've been waiting for that thing to come out forever. I know [crosstalk 00:33:33]
Jennifer Tracy: I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait.
MJ Grant: Yes. And I have all my friends ... We're all on board with us, but I will ... I don't know. I feel like in going through this process, it's also ... I talk about how incredible it is to feel more vast but also, like you said earlier, it starts attracting these people in your life who are, "You're my people. Oh my gosh. Wait. You love people too the way I do? You can talk to a total stranger and literally look in their eyes and feel love." And I don't mean it always has to be romantic love. It's that, "Oh my gosh. Your heart."
MJ Grant: And other people will say, "Why are you doing that? Just walk past them. Don't give that person the time of day. They're crazy," or they're this or they're that. I can't, and I've never been that way. I've always been one to want to spend time with strangers and ask questions and just look in their eyes and experience them. And I finally have accepted that too because I thought that was weird. I was told that was weird. "You're crazy. Why are you staring in this person's eyes? That's just weird." And it's not weird. It's not weird at all.
Jennifer Tracy: And I think those limitations that are placed on us come from a well-intended place of somebody else's fear. So I can listen to that story and say, "Okay. I'm imagining you as a little girl. You're my little girl, let's say, and you're seven years old. And you're like, 'I want to look in this man's eyes.' I'm like, 'No.'"
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:35:08]
Jennifer Tracy: It's easy to say ... I just obviously made that up. I don't know. But it's easy to jump to that and not be able to ... especially if it wasn't given to us, not be able to support, "Oh, well, that doesn't feel safe to me, but what are the options or why are you drawn to that, or can we talk about that, or let's explore that." I always say, when I allow myself to be curious and interested instead of have contempt prior to investigation and just be afraid and shut down, the most amazing things happen because I'm able to open my mind and open my heart and just go, "Oh my God. I would have missed that. I would have really missed that."
Jennifer Tracy: But it is a balance, like you said earlier. There are safety concerns in life. We can't just ... But also, it's like how do we get curious about something instead of just wanting to shut it down? Also because, I got to tell you, I mean, I'm tired. I'm tired. I'm emotionally exhausted from yesterday with my kiddo, and I'm so glad I was able to be there for him, but I am just whipped. And so I have to balance that and go, "Okay. I'm going to lay down this morning and do a meditation. I'm going to ... " It's not easy.
MJ Grant: Oh, it's not easy. It's not.
Jennifer Tracy: But it's not easy doing it the other way either and shutting it off. That's not easy either. There is no easy is basically the takeaway.
MJ Grant: Oh, God. There is no easy. But I will say that I get fed from having those moments with people, and I used to feel like it was draining in some way to be ... There were moments I would feel ... So once I allowed society to creep in and I felt that embarrassment about who I am, then it became draining. So I couldn't deal with people's emotional stuff because it became too draining. But then doing this work, it doesn't feel draining. It feels like it's opening-
Jennifer Tracy: Nourishing. Yeah.
MJ Grant: Yeah. Nourishing and feeding my soul and just material and fertilizer for my garden. Oh my gosh. And my daughter, I love ... I don't know. I've always had this way of connecting with ... At some point, usually every decade, I adopt a teenage girl. And I don't really adopt them, but [crosstalk 00:37:36]
Jennifer Tracy: Right. You take them under your wing. Yes.
MJ Grant: Yeah. I take them under my wing, and I've done this naturally throughout the past 30 ... 30. Wait. I'm 44. Well, okay, 20 years of my life. Okay, let's do the math here, MJ. Whoa. And that for a while was viewed as a little bit strange, like, "Why [inaudible 00:37:55] spending so much time with this teenage girl? She needs to grow up." And you know why? Because I had that as a child. I had my Aunt [Charlene 00:38:03], who was my everything, and she took me under her wing.
MJ Grant: But this process of doing that and sitting with a teenage girl who is ... There are days when she just wants to throw herself down and weep and being there with her and weeping with her and telling her, "It's okay. I'm here, and this is normal." And this is you cleansing and purging and doing all that work that most people don't do, that makes you feel like you are strange and there's something wrong with you. You're cleansing, and let's keep doing that. Let's keep doing ...
MJ Grant: So I don't feel drained from that. I feel fed from that. So after a long conversation yesterday with this particular surrogate of mine who I absolutely adore, I came home and I got up on my computer and I was doing work, and my husband came in the house and said, "You need to go out and deal with Alana," my five-year-old. "She's in the car, and she's not happy and she doesn't want to come in." And my immediate default was, "I can't. I can't. I can't deal. I can't do it." And it had nothing to do with what I had been through that day in talking to this person. It had to do with the other things in my life that were actually draining me, which is work. That's draining me right now.
MJ Grant: But the emotional piece of being able to connect with another human being and sit in that space with them feels rejuvenating for me. And I don't know where it came from in that moment, but I said to myself, "Okay, MJ. You got this. This is your thing. This is what you're good at. Get up. Go outside. Let go of work. That's draining you, not your five-year-old, not this 17-year-old girl, work. So go and do what feeds you." And it was a matter of a few minutes of holding her and validating her and being with her and not trying to hurry the process along. "Okay, Mommy's busy. I've got work. I got [crosstalk 00:40:04]." That just quelled her, and it was like-
Jennifer Tracy: It's so hard to do that though because we do have these things. We do have the laundry and the things. I'm getting incrementally better at just saying, "You know what? My son's my priority," because it would just be like ... I would just have this almost like ... I hate to use the word martyr but, "I've given so much. I need time for myself," or I need ... and it's like, "Well, okay, but the fact is, he's only going to be nine once. He's only going to be nine for two for months, and this is so crucial. It's the most important thing."
Jennifer Tracy: Like yesterday. And I was able. I'm able to do this. But I canceled my whole day so that I could take him to therapy, and I'm glad that I was there for that and that I could talk to the therapist and be there and then sit outside and wait for him. There's just nothing more important. Now, that is coming from a very ... I have the means to do that. I have the situation that I can do that. I know there are-
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:41:03] absolutely.
Jennifer Tracy: ... there are people that can't do that, but I think it's just, like you said, it's finding that space to really let go of the things that ultimately, big picture, aren't important and aren't urgent.
MJ Grant: Yeah. I mean, my husband folding the towels the wrong way [inaudible 00:41:21] I don't need to follow behind him and refold the freaking towels. "MJ, let it go. Go spend an extra five minutes with your kids because-
Jennifer Tracy: That's hysterical.
MJ Grant: ... those towels are okay." Yeah, I mean, the laundry, it's going to be there, and yeah, it's going to add up. But the laundry is not a human being, and the laundry doesn't have an energetic impact on the world. We have the energetic impact. Our children do. So how do I want to be in the world? Do I want my laundry to be folded exactly the right way because that looks good and has zero energy to it? I mean, maybe it shifts my energy in some way, my energy field, but ... or do I really want to work on my energy field with people, with my children, with my spouse and my mom.
MJ Grant: I mean, that's another challenge. My mother is deaf, and she lives with us. And my mother-in-law is hearing, and she lives with us too. So we have two moms who are living with us-
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
MJ Grant: And I'm always in the midst of navigating communication with them and all of that and having to deal with that piece, having to deal with the dementia that looks very different on both ends. They both have it, and it looks different for both of them. So all of that, the thought of it, which is part of why I went through this whole thing last year, like the thought of doing it felt exhausting but then actually doing it, when I'm present with it and honoring it, it actually feels like it's feeding me. And you can probably see that from the video. I had a video go viral on the internet, and-
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, let's talk about that. So can you tell me about that? How did that happen? What was the impetus for you to do that and post it, and then what happened?
MJ Grant: Well, I am addicted to ... I told you I have hyperfocus issues, addiction stuff going on here with having to record everything and I want to take pictures of everything. I want to capture every moment. And so I always leave my ... I used to leave my phone camera on all the time in the car when I would be in the car with my parents because both of my parents have things going on. So my father has something going on that's causing him to decline, and my mom with her dementia. So anytime I'd be in the car with my parents, I would record the entire ride, and I also did that for my children. A lot of our conversations, I would just keep that phone running, and wow, it's really great to look back on [crosstalk 00:43:50]
Jennifer Tracy: I bet.
MJ Grant: ... I'm going to do something with this because I have such great material that's really fun. That day, I happened to take my mom for a ride to the beach, and I had recorded the whole way, recorded the whole moment of sitting at the beach in the car. And she had just moved in with me about a month before. She had lived with me a couple years ago and then we were doing an assisted living memory care facility, and then we ran out of money because those places are expensive. It was isolating just by the good nature of all the people there. It was really isolating for her, and so we went broke basically too. And so we moved her into my house.
MJ Grant: And having been witness to how severe her dementia had become at that point and when we were sitting there, she started talking about ... I know this is really fascinating [inaudible 00:44:41] is she started talking about things that she has clearly locked in her body, which was what it was like for her as a mother and witnessing her two daughters fighting and not being able to deal with that. And she repeats that story over and over and over and over and over again.
MJ Grant: But that day was one of the first times that I noticed she was talking about [Luanne 00:45:07] and Mary Jane ... She still calls me Mary Jane. She was talking about Luanne and Mary Jane in a way as if they weren't there. So is that third person?
Jennifer Tracy: Yep.
MJ Grant: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, yeah. All right, second person. Whatever.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Third person. Yeah. You got it.
MJ Grant: So [inaudible 00:45:21] talking about me, and I realized, "Wait a minute. She's talking about me as if I'm not here." And then I said, "Where is MJ?" And she said, "I don't know. I haven't seen her in so long." And that was one of the first times that that had happened, even though it was starting to happen here and there, but the way that transpired was unique. And that's why I decided to post it, the moment she came to realizing ... And it was the way she signed it too. She said, "I birthed you? Wait? I ... " and then she signed, "Birthed," and pointed to me and with a face that was like, "What? I'm yours? You're mine?" Yes, and then that discovery. Oh, it was precious.
MJ Grant: I mean, now she has many, many moments that she just doesn't know who I am. She'll ask me, "Did you grow up with Mary Jane? Did you go to school with her? She's so busy. I never see her. I don't see her anymore. It's been so long." But it was in the beginning of that for me, and so ... But people took to the video in many different ways, and a lot of it was it was heartbreaking for people. And for me, it didn't feel heartbreaking. It felt I could be in that same space with her when she was celebrating the discovery of her daughter that she thought she hadn't seen in months.
MJ Grant: So it was just happy, and I was elated, and it felt like a moment of joy. And I don't think I would have seen it that way two years ago. I think I would have allowed that to be the story of, "Oh, everything is just hard." And it's not to say it's not hard.
Jennifer Tracy: Of course.
MJ Grant: I don't want to discount dementia being hard and doing all the things that I'm doing because I don't know how I'm spinning all the plates that I'm spinning. It's freaking hard. But I wasn't in a space in that moment of it being hard. I was in a very different space because I think I could be with her in that moment. And that's what this journey has become for me, and that's, again, she's like a lot of material for me, for my growth. It's been wonderful.
Jennifer Tracy: That's so beautiful, MJ, and just something that is occurring to me as you've been talking is that you are such a seeker of love. You genuinely seek love, and that moment where you said, and you signed it. Unfortunately, this is just audio, so my listeners can't see you, but you signed birth. "I birthed you." And then the look that came upon ... you re-enacted on your mom's face, to feel that love from your mom is so deep and so healing on so many levels. And yes, the dementia's existing. All of this is happening at the same time, but because of the work that you've done with yourself and with your spirit and all that, you were able to access that. And that is remarkable.
MJ Grant: Oh, I'm really grateful for that. I really am very, very happy that I can experience that with her. I do feel like when my parents ... when it's their time, I feel like I will be able to look back and say, "I really treasured," despite how busy my life is ... and trust me, it's busy and there's days I'm like, "I can't. I can't do this business anymore. I'm done. I'm done. Okay, I'm sending the email. Okay, as of September 1, 2019, I will ... " I replay that scenario over and over again in my mind and I want to give up and I want to quit and I just want to go sit in a field and sob and pick a daisy and just be [inaudible 00:49:23] like, "Oh, God." But I feel the way ... even how I hug my father ... My father is now immobile. He can't walk. He has something called progressive supranuclear palsy. Ugly disease. I can't say it's beautiful. There are beautiful moments of the connection that we have as a result of him allowing me to help him. That is magical and powerful and life changing.
MJ Grant: And so now, when I have to pick him up, we have to have two people working with him to get him dressed. I have to pick him up, and I'm holding my dad and my arms are around him and his arms are around me. And we can't speak to each other because he's deaf, so I can't see his face because his head is on my shoulder. We have never embraced each other in that way. So every time I pick him up and I'm just holding him so he can keep his balance, I am hugging him and I am just taking in all of his daddy love that I know that he feels in that moment, that daddy-daughter, like nobody has this. Nobody has this like we have it. This is ours. And that's been special too. I'm a seeker of love. I love love. I mean, I really do. It's [crosstalk 00:50:43]
Jennifer Tracy: That is just profound. Well, MJ, I mean, I don't want to end our conversation but it's time for me to start my wrap-up and do the questions that I normally do. But I just have to say that Jen Pastiloff, when I told her that I had scheduled my session with you, she said, and I quote, "Get ready to have your mind blown." And let me tell you something, sister. You did not disappoint.
MJ Grant: Oh, Jen. That's wonderful. Thank you so much for the compliment.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, I am so honored to know you now and-
MJ Grant: Oh, likewise.
Jennifer Tracy: ... just thank you for sharing this bit of yourself with me and with my listeners.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, so what happens now is I ask you three questions that I ask every guest, and then we go into a fun little lightning round. So the first question, MJ, is, "What do you think about when you hear the word MILF?"
MJ Grant: Wow. I get anxiety. I'm like, "Oh, gosh." I get anxiety about the word MILF. Again, that goes back to some of my own fears about perception. So that's the first thing that comes to my mind, full disclosure. The second thing that comes to my mind, I can't help but to go back. I never actually saw the movie, so I never saw the movie, but I remember standing in the main mall doing ... For a little while, I was in radio, and I remember standing there doing a gig for a radio show, and I remember one of the on-air personalities saying, "Wow, so you have a teenage son. His friends must think you're a MILF." Whoa. I'm like, "What does that mean? I don't even know what that means." I didn't know what that meant.
MJ Grant: So based on that scenario where I actually learned from him what that was, and empowerment. I think empowerment. That's really what comes to mind after going through that flurry of those memories and ... Empowerment.
Jennifer Tracy: What's something you've changed your mind about recently?
MJ Grant: I've changed my mind about the fact that I can't change my mind. So I can. I can. I've also changed my mind about the idea of everything has to be positive. I don't want to give that perception. I don't want people to think that I am perfect and that everything is great in my life, because it's not and I cry and I weep and there are times I'm in the fetal position in my car because I actually enjoy that process, but it's hard. So changing my mind about not being able to change my mind. Yeah. And the thought that I'm not smart. I thought for a long time I wasn't smart. I'm smart. I am. I changed my mind about that too. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: How do you define success?
MJ Grant: Self-discovery, the process, embracing the journey every step of the way, allowing yourself to feel, allowing yourself to be, aligning with your sacred purpose, all of that, that whole process to me.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Okay, lightning round of questions.
MJ Grant: Okay. Go.
Jennifer Tracy: Ocean or desert?
MJ Grant: Ocean.
Jennifer Tracy: Favorite junk food.
MJ Grant: Whoopie pies. Do you know what that is?
Jennifer Tracy: Whoopie pies. Oh my God.
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:53:56]
Jennifer Tracy: So good. So good. So good. Movies or Broadway show?
MJ Grant: Movies.
Jennifer Tracy: Daytime sex or nighttime sex?
MJ Grant: Anytime my daughter's not in the bed. We have a family bed.
Jennifer Tracy: Texting or talking?
MJ Grant: Talking, unless it's business. I prefer to text.
Jennifer Tracy: Yep. Cat person or dog person?
MJ Grant: Dog.
Jennifer Tracy: Have you ever worn a unitard?
MJ Grant: Is that the full-body [crosstalk 00:54:23]
Jennifer Tracy: Full-body, babe.
MJ Grant: ... goes down to your ankles too?
Jennifer Tracy: Goes down to your ankles.
MJ Grant: I have never worn a unitard. I've worn one of those bodysuit things.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. No unitard. Shower or bathtub?
MJ Grant: Shower in the morning and bathtub at night if I have a really good bathtub.
Jennifer Tracy: Ice cream or chocolate?
MJ Grant: Chocolate. Oh, dang. Ice cream. Wait. Ice cream with peanut butter and then chocolate on it. [crosstalk 00:54:47]
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, girl. Yes. Yes. On a scale of one to ten, how good are you at ping-pong?
MJ Grant: I would say a three.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. What is your biggest pet peeve?
MJ Grant: Inauthenticity, people who aren't willing to go there. Yeah, I would say ... Oh, moments when I am not authentic. That's a pet peeve, when I'm afraid, when I'm being held back by something and so therefore, I'm not authentic. Yeah. Hence, it being a pet peeve when other people do it, right?
Jennifer Tracy: If you could push a button and it would make everyone in the world 7% happier but it would also place a worldwide ban on all hairstyling products, would you push it?
MJ Grant: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: Super power choice, invisibility, ability to fly, or super strength?
MJ Grant: Super strength physically?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
MJ Grant: Oh. Ability to fly. I love flying. I dream [inaudible 00:55:38] yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Would you rather have six fingers on both hands ... This is interesting because you're a sign [crosstalk 00:55:46]
MJ Grant: Right. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: ... sign language. Six fingers on both hands or a belly button that looks like foreskin?
MJ Grant: [inaudible 00:55:55] have a belly button that looks like foreskin. It sort of does.
Jennifer Tracy: You have one that looks like foreskin?
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:56:04] it flops over a little bit. It does. It's all the pregnancies and stuff. It's-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my gosh.
MJ Grant: Yeah. It's different, so I like my belly button. It looks like [inaudible 00:56:17] but I'll take it.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, so you'll keep your belly button. There you have it.
MJ Grant: I'll keep the foreskin.
Jennifer Tracy: All right. Keep that foreskin. What was the name of your first pet?
MJ Grant: Labby [crosstalk 00:56:28]
Jennifer Tracy: What was the name of the ... What was it?
MJ Grant: Labby, but yeah, I don't know where that name came from, but Labby.
Jennifer Tracy: Labby. Okay. What was the name of the street that you grew up on?
MJ Grant: Old Falls Road.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. Okay. So your porn name is-
MJ Grant: [crosstalk 00:56:42]
Jennifer Tracy: ... Labby Old Falls. Labby Old Falls. I think she was a former porn star and now ...
MJ Grant: She's trying to reinvent herself. Oh God. Oh that's [crosstalk 00:57:03]
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my God. MJ, you're a treasure. Thank you so much.
MJ Grant: Thank you. It's been wonderful.
Jennifer Tracy: Thanks so much for listening, guys. I really hope you enjoyed my conversation with MJ Grant. Join me next week for a fresh episode of MILF podcast. Bye.