Terri Fry: For me, it was all about, "It doesn't matter what religion you are, I'm not going to do this just to satisfy people. If he wants to convert, he can convert, but he has to do it for him. He can not do it from me. He cannot do it for a woman, for a marriage. That's just fake." We had a civil ceremony where people had a huge problem with, and especially my dad's side of the family, and when they found out, which they did, a few years later, they were just so disgusted. To this day, they just look down on me and Oh, I am just ... I have this responsibility of taking these people to heaven and I am throwing away that chance. So I'm going to go to hell and these people are going to go to hell because of me. It's just so crazy. And my mom is super religious, but she's not like that at all. She is extremely open and like as long as you guys are happy, that's all that matters. But in the beginning it was very hard.
Announcer: You're listening to the MILF Podcast. This is the show where we talk about motherhood and sexuality with amazing women with fascinating stories to share on the joys of being a MILF. Now, here's your host, the milfiest MILF I know, Jennifer Tracy.
Jennifer Tracy: Hey guys. Welcome back to the show. This is MILF Podcast, the show where we talk about motherhood, entrepreneurship, sexuality and everything in between. I'm Jennifer Tracy, your host. Welcome back guys. So excited for today's episode. Today I have on the show my guest, Terri Fry. Terri is the podcast host of Mom Like That Podcast. And during our interview for my show, I learned that I was her first guest on her podcast. I didn't know that. So I went back and looked just now, and my episode dropped November 12th, 2018, and I think it's Episode 8 of her ... It is Episode 8 of Mom Like That Podcast.
Jennifer Tracy: If you wanted to check it out, we do talk about a lot of really intimate stuff. I admitted that I masturbated a lot while I was pregnant, which is 100% true. I was really horny when I was pregnant. Maybe not the first trimester, but the second two, for sure. And I remember my husband and I were having sex up until my water broke, just kidding. But really up until the end. It was very interesting. That's going to be today's guest. But before that, I wanted to talk about a couple things.
Jennifer Tracy: Today's give or this month's give is a GLSEN. GLSEN is an organization that champions LGBTQ issues in schools, kindergarten through 12th and they've been around since 1990. This is something that's really close to my heart, especially because so many kids now are coming out as transgender, as gay, as queer at a young age, and they need support. They really need support and their peers need support. The kids that don't know what that is. Because when we're ignorant of something that the first thing that we do as humans is go to fear. And what fear does is it puts up a wall and it puts up a block and then that's what leads to bullying and that's what leads to exclusion and it's really dangerous. It's really, really dangerous.
Jennifer Tracy: So this amazing organization, GLSEN, their website is on the show notes for today and on my giving page on milfpodcast.com, but their website is glsen.org. So many amazing ways to get involved with them. They have chapters all over the country. If you do have a child who is identifying as transgender or different sexual orientation, different gender identity, they can help you, as the parent, and they can help your kids. And they can also ... Their whole goal is to work with the schools to help the schools get educated. To help the administration get educated so that they can pass that onto the children.
Jennifer Tracy: This is such, such an important, important, important topic right now and it's really, really close to my heart. So I wanted to share that with you guys. Yeah. And October is LGBTQ history month. Tomorrow is National Coming Out Day, October 11th. And I know we have AIDS Walk LA here on October 20th and a lot of other amazing events here. If you're in the United States or Canada or the UK, that's when we celebrate LGBTQ plus history month. You know, get involved. We're all here to love and support each other, is what I believe and that can only happen when we get educated about everybody's differences. That's it. Learn more on my website or at glisten.com.
Jennifer Tracy: And today's sponsor is Clutch Gifts. Clutch Gifts is a curated gift company. They make these beautiful, beautiful gift boxes and they ship them right to your gifty, your recipient. And they're all curated around these beautiful sommelier tested wines like small produce wines and ... I'm using the wrong word. I'm using the wrong word because I lost my text. It was on my website and I lost it.
Jennifer Tracy: Anyway, this company Clutch Gifts is amazing. It's run by these two women that I just adore, Molly and Tracy and they have a little boy together. And that's how I know them because our kids were in school together. And they are truly talented at this. If you want to wow somebody with a really special gift that they're not going to get from anyone else, go to clutchgifts.com because they do pick these amazing wines. I don't know anything about wine because I don't drink, but they do. And so, when I have someone that's a wine drinker, I'm like, "What do I get? What do I get them?" And they automatically know. We'll do they like rosé, do they like red, do they like white?
Jennifer Tracy: And then they pair them with these beautiful little things ... Trinkets isn't the right word because that makes it sound kitschy. But like a beautiful candle, a beautiful box of matches, a beautiful book, a beautiful journal, beautiful pens, little board games. Really cool and really, really, really ... I hate this word, but I'm going to use it because it's accurate for this. It's, they are bespoke gift boxes. And because you're a MILF listener, you get 15% off if you go to Clutch Gifts and you put the things in your shopping cart, when you get to the checkout, if you put in the code MILF15, you get 15%t off. So yay, everybody wins.
Jennifer Tracy: All right. Without further ado, here is my interview with Terri Fry. And I love that her last name is Fry because ... And it's spelled F-R-Y, my favorite food, honestly. If I had to answer the question, favorite junk food, it's French fries. Now, I'm going to clarify that because I don't do soggy fries and I don't do those really thick potato fries that where you bite into them and it's like just potato in the middle. That's okay. I'll make that work in a pinch. But like real authentic, perfectly crisp, perfectly hot, perfectly salted French fries, oh my God, I'll be yours forever. Do you add a steak to that or like the perfect burger? Oh, yeah. I'm just having a little daydream about it right now, even though it's 9 a.m.
Jennifer Tracy: All right. Here's my interview with Terri, you guys. Hi Terri.
Terri Fry: Hi Jen.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God.
Terri Fry: How's the going?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God, it's going so good. I'm so happy to see your beautiful face. Thank you so much for doing this.
Terri Fry: Oh, so happy to see yours. I'm so excited to be on. Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: It's just so great. For our listeners, I was on Terri show, Mom Like That, which is another amazing podcast where Terri interviews moms and we had so much fun.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. I revealed things that I wasn't sure. I was really chatty. You really got me talking.
Terri Fry: I loved it. I loved it. You know, you were my first official guests on the podcast. Before that I had recorded a podcast, but friends and because I had just started when you and I recorded. So you were my first official guest.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, I was?
Terri Fry: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm so honored.
Terri Fry: Yes, and it was so great. It was a great conversation.
Jennifer Tracy: It was. It really was. We had such a good time. It was dove rated.
Terri Fry: We did. I loved it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. We talked about farts at some point, I remember.
Terri Fry: We did. Yes, we did. We talked about masturbating.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Terri Fry: Yeah, we did.
Jennifer Tracy: I loved how you just said that, masturbating.
Terri Fry: You know what, people say that to me all the time. The way I pronounce my vowels, it's like I accentuate them a lot.
Jennifer Tracy: I love it.
Terri Fry: It's also because I was born in Pakistan, right, and I lived there for 10 years and then I lived in Texas for another six to seven years.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, wow. How old were you? Okay, so 10 and then ... okay. Yeah, that's a big [crosstalk 00:09:33]-
Terri Fry: When I was 16, yeah. Well, nine or 10 is when I moved to Texas and then at 16, I moved to Canada. So I have this like mish-mash accent-
Jennifer Tracy: Mish-mash of accents. I love it.
Terri Fry: Yeah, and then in Pakistan, I went to a British school where some of my teachers had a British accent because they were not all local teachers.
Jennifer Tracy: Of course.
Terri Fry: Yeah. So it's a mish-mash of everything. People's like, "I love your accent, where is it from?" I'm like, "Well, let me tell you."
Jennifer Tracy: Everywhere. It's international.
Terri Fry: It's an international accent. That's a world accent.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God. It is, it's so good. It's so good. Okay. So, well let's start there. So you were born in Pakistan?
Terri Fry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Tracy: And lived there for 10 years and then moved to Texas. That must have been quite a culture shock at that time because that was in the '80s or early '90s?
Terri Fry: No, 2000.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my God, you're such a baby.
Terri Fry: No, wait. No, it is in '90s. '90s, you're right. Oh my God, '90.
Jennifer Tracy: You're so young. I forget that you're so much younger than I am. Okay.
Terri Fry: That's all right. Yeah, mid-90s, that's where it would be.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. So even so just with world history, which I'm not the best at, but I'm thinking that must have been ... What was that like as a kid?
Terri Fry: You know what, it wasn't that hard as a kid, especially for me being just such a social person. I was always ready to dive into any social situation. And I think the biggest cultural shock was how quiet everything was, really.
Jennifer Tracy: Interesting, in what sense?
Terri Fry: It's just there's not enough people, there's just not enough hype in the city. I moved to Houston or Sugar Land, to be exact. Sugar Land, Texas and it was just very quiet. And so my parents really tried to keep me sheltered too because they were afraid I was going to get corrupted by the Western world. So I had limitations in terms of who I can hang out with, who I can be friends with, and where I can go to begin with. So I don't remember it being difficult making friends or adjusting in the culture, it was just more very different.
Jennifer Tracy: And were people like ... I am just assuming that kids were mean because they are, because-
Terri Fry: No.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, that's great. I love that.
Terri Fry: Yeah, they were not mean. I made some friends very quickly and everybody was super nice. So for my teachers, the biggest shock was that how fluent I was in English, to begin with. Like, "You are so fluent." I'm like, "Well, yeah, I've learned English all my life." And she was like, "You're better at English than others students in our classes." I'm like, "Well, can't have learned this all my life just because I live there doesn't mean I haven't." So I think that was a shock. And I was such a nerd. So I think people liked me because they would come to me like give them all the answers and stuff. So, yeah. "Here's a Brown chick, she must know it all."
Jennifer Tracy: And that was funny. Well, that's what I was getting after like the innate sort of. I guess it's just racism, you know what I mean?
Terri Fry: It is.
Jennifer Tracy: And me being super white came from a super white suburb of Denver, where ... And again, it was like we had kids from other ... We didn't have kids from other countries in our school, I don't think, but we had kids of color in our school, but it was this rare thing. It was just so white and now as I'm 44 and living in LA and raising my own kid and realizing how much the implicit bias is just there and there's no ... So I always find it interesting when I have a woman of color on my show, especially who moved from another country, just to find out what your experience was like as a child.
Jennifer Tracy: And that's interesting, because I had another guest on who said it was just horrible. She moved from Iran when she was 10. She was bullied terribly. But that was also a different type. She's a little older than you, it was the '80s. But still, anyway, I just think that's interesting and something worth talking about, because obviously, that still happens. And I want to get into a little bit about, later, that you're in a multiracial marriage.
Terri Fry: I am multiracial. We both come from different religions. We haven't converted to either/or. Our kids are being raised just neutral. That is very interesting, yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Where did you meet him?
Terri Fry: I met him at a bar. He used to manage this bar. The time I met him, I think I was about 20, 21-
Jennifer Tracy: In Toronto?
Terri Fry: Yeah, in Toronto. And I had gone in for some drinks with my girlfriend and he was one of the ... he was the general manager there. And I was like, "Oh my God, he's so hot," because he was like he had so much authority and he's like putting this table on their plays because there were being decks and I was like, "Oh my God, he's so hot." And he thought the same too. And we actually both came out of longer relationships and we were both rebounding with each other. So then Ted was never to be serious. We were just hooking up. That was the pure intent and then it turned into something serious.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow. And you were young. How old were you?
Terri Fry: I was 21 basically when I met him, and he was 27. So I was entering my full on-party stage, he was exiting it, but he was really accommodating. And the first couple of years we were on and off a lot. So it wasn't that serious in the sense that, I was hooking up with other people. He says he wasn't. I tell him I wasn't either, but he's like, "I know you are. I know you are." Recently, I blurted this out to one of his friends when I was drunk. I'm like, "Yeah, I used to hook up with other people when we were on and off," like totally offered this information, it was not requested and then he like talked to me about it two days later he's like, "You said that to him. You remember?" I said, "Listen, I cannot take ownership of anything I did when I was drunk. You need to talk to the drunk me. Well, sober me says that's a lie," but he's good about it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, water under the bridge.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: So when you guys decided to get serious and introduced each other to your families ... Now, where is he from? He's Canadian?
Terri Fry: He's Canadian. He's German Scottish. He's half German, half Scottish from his background. So he's as Canadian as it can be.
Jennifer Tracy: I love it. And his religion, just because you mentioned that he's-
Terri Fry: Yeah, Catholic. He's been raised Catholic, but he is not a practicing Catholic.
Jennifer Tracy: Got it.
Terri Fry: Yeah. He's ideal-
Jennifer Tracy: And you are ... What is your-
Terri Fry: I'm Muslim, raised Muslim, not a practicing Muslim. So we're both not practicing, but we do tend to celebrate the holidays with the families.
Jennifer Tracy: And are your families ... How was that taken when your families were ... because in all the romantic comedy movies you see that where it's like, "Oh they can't be together, because the families won't accept them."
Terri Fry: Yeah, you know what, from his end there was no problem. His family is very open. They didn't care. And he met me more as an adult than I met him. I was still a child really.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Terri Fry: So my family was more controlling in the sense of who you can or can't date, with him, "You're an adult, make your own decisions." They didn't care. My family knew I wouldn't go for someone who's Brown just because I hadn't dated people who were Brown before either. So they knew, this was kind of coming. But when it did come time to it, there was a lot of conflict, almost. Even though my mom and dad accepted him, it was more like, "You should try and convince him to convert. You can't get married religiously if he's not a Muslim."
Terri Fry: So, in Islam, a woman can marry a Muslim man, she doesn't have to be Muslim. However, a man who's non Muslim cannot marry a Muslim without converting because it's the man who carries the lineage, so that he has to carry the Muslim lineage. So we actually did not have a religious ceremony. We had a civil ceremony. For me it was all about, "It doesn't matter what religion you are, I'm not going to do this just to satisfy people. If he want to convert, he can convert, but he has to do it for him. He doesn't have ... He can not do it from me. He can not do it for a woman, for a marriage that's just fake."
Terri Fry: We had a civil ceremony where people had a huge problem with and especially my dad's side of the family. And when they found out, which they did, a few years later, they were just so disgusted. To this day, they just look down on me and Oh, I have this responsibility of taking these people to heaven and I am throwing away that chance, so I'm going to go to hell and these people are going to go to hell because of me. It's just so crazy. And my mom is super religious, but she's not like that at all. She is extremely open and we drink, we smoke and she doesn't care. She's like, "As long as you guys are happy, that's all that matters." But in the beginning it was very hard to get into all of this.
Terri Fry: My first serious boyfriend, who was also white, one of my uncles was almost like my legal guardian, and when he found out I was seeing that guy, he actually gave me a choice. He's like, "It's got to be him or me because if it's him, I won't pay for your school." And I said, "Then that's great. It won't be you because this is not unconditional love. If you love me unconditionally, you wouldn't make me pick. So I'm not picking you or him. I'm just not picking your options and it's up to you what you want to do." We haven't really talked since. That relationship is gone.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow. Now, why was he your legal guardian?
Terri Fry: Just my dad was not around often.
Jennifer Tracy: Got it. Your dad wasn't around?
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: But he is now? He's in your life now?
Terri Fry: Yeah, my dad's totally in my life. He's just so super chill about everything too [crosstalk 00:19:58] I have this-
Jennifer Tracy: Got it. So you have the support of your immediate family?
Terri Fry: For sure. Back, at that time, with the wedding especially, there was just a lot of chaos because they didn't want an open bar, they didn't want all this drinking, they didn't want my dress to be so booboolicious which is why, like these were making fans.
Jennifer Tracy: You're saying, for our listeners who will get ... You guys will follow her. You will see that her body is dope.
Terri Fry: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: You have booboolicious boobs.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: There's no denying it. I mean they're going to be booboolicious no matter what you wear. But it is ... Yeah.
Terri Fry: Yeah, I love [inaudible 00:20:39] too.
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely.
Terri Fry: Yeah, why not?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes you should. This is the MILF Podcast, baby?
Terri Fry: Yes. Oh, and kissing was a huge ... Okay. So it's a very big full part in our culture, you don't kiss, you don't show intimacy in a relationship in public because that's supposed to be for your bedroom. So there was this whole thing about you guys cannot have a kiss at the wedding. And we did anyway. And my family was-
Jennifer Tracy: At the wedding?
Terri Fry: Yes. And my family was pissed. Like one of my sisters left early because she's like, "This is crazy." My other sister doesn't care. She was there with her white boyfriend too. So most of my family's really chill and cool about everything. We all drink and smoke and we all like to indulge in parties. We're very non-practicing Muslims. But that portion from my mom and dad and one of my sisters was really hard that, "You guys shared a kiss." I'm like, "It's a goddamn kiss."
Jennifer Tracy: Interesting. That's so interesting.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Well, I think just to weigh in, this is so different, but I do feel like weddings in any culture, they're never about the bride and groom. It always ends up being about everyone else, people make it about them. And I was just having this conversation with another guest about a weddings. She is about to have her second child and she and her partner are not married and they haven't decided whether they're going to get married and she said, "But you know, my idea now that I have children of," Oh, I'm getting a FaceTime that I'm going to decline. Sorry about that.
Terri Fry: No worries.
Jennifer Tracy: She said, "My idea now about what I want as a wedding is so much different than before our kids," as everything is different before you have kids, your idea of it. She's like, "I don't want the big wedding. I want just a small thing." And I'm like, "Yeah, I know." Because I remember my wedding, everybody around me made it about them.
Terri Fry: Yeah. Well, they always do.
Jennifer Tracy: And my husband's family made it ... Like his dad didn't come because he wanted to know where he was going to sit. And that's a whole other long story.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: So you guys get married, you share a kiss on the wedding day, your family freaks out about it. And then what happens? How long after that did you guys decide you wanted to have kids?
Terri Fry: We wanted kids right away. Yeah. I felt that ... I was going for a big corporate job. I had a job lined up. And I knew-
Jennifer Tracy: And what do you do? I skipped that part.
Terri Fry: So I'm a consultant, by my day job. I work with a digital and data analytics company. So I'm immersed in data analytics and consulting the companies on just strategies to grow their business forward. So I'm part of a really big network in that sense. So I'm not doing it on my own, it's part of a big company. At that time I was studying to get my CPA and I had a job lined up in one of the big for accounting firms. And then we decided, while I was still in school, let's have a baby now because I knew once I had gotten in my career, I'm putting that on hold for a while because that was always really important to me. So we decided to have-
Jennifer Tracy: Having kids was always important to you?
Terri Fry: And my career.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, and your career, yeah.
Terri Fry: Yeah. So I knew if I started my job, I'm putting my having kids on the backgrounds for a while. So that was something I was aware of and we decided to get pregnant right away. I was pregnant through my last year of school. And then we had our baby and then I was going to start my new job in four months. And then I said, "I'm not going to go back there because I won't have a life." I won't see my kid at four months. As an audit associate, you don't have your own time, you're working till 10 p.m., you're working on weekends for the tax season. It's not a life you want with a kid. And I decided, "Okay, I'm just going to pursue something else." And something else came through and I started working in the not for profit sector, working with fundraising agency working with charities.
Terri Fry: So we decided to have the first kid right away. And our second kid was about ... They're two and a half years apart. So we waited another few years while I was settled in my job before we had our second kid. Sometimes I wish I had gone back and gotten my CPA, but everything has turned out really well. I like what I do. So that was a right choice to not pursue it, was the right choice. And I'm glad we had the baby when we did because there's always this ... You're always torn. Sometimes I wonder, "Did I have my baby too soon at age 26, 27?" And then I'm like, "If I wait, is that too late?" So you're never going to be satisfied, you never know-
Jennifer Tracy: It's never going to be perfect, yeah.
Terri Fry: It won't be. And it was the right time for the way things unfolded. We had our second child three years later. They're two and a half years apart. But it's good in that sense. It's a mindset shift too. For the longest time, I did beat myself down watching my peers get ahead on the ladder because for me in Canada, it's not that you're off for three weeks. I had a whole year off of maternity leave. So I'm out from work and that's like almost starting your job all over again. So you learn the ropes again and whether people want to admit it or not, at least in my case, I have found that taking two years of maternity leave did slow my career down from where I would like to be.
Terri Fry: And that was something I had to come to terms with and I had to stop beating myself down for it. Like, "This is what I've got. I've got to work with this and I can still succeed," because career's really important to me. I'm super ambitious, I've so many goals and my husband's really supportive because he is not a career oriented. He just wants a job. He's like, "I just want to come home and not think about work." So it's a good balance because I can focus on it. We're both not really heavy career focused.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, I love that. I love that. When you bring up something interesting ... Well, first of all, let's go back to the year of maternity leave in Canada. Because we don't have that here. We have like, "Oh you can go back to work tomorrow. Here's your episiotomy pad, in case you leak."
Terri Fry: Seriously.
Jennifer Tracy: So does the government pay for you when you-
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God.
Terri Fry: So, the way it works is, at least for Ontario, because I'm in the province of Ontario, you get 55% of your salary-
Jennifer Tracy: That's amazing.
Terri Fry: ... Up until 49,500, so whichever you hit, basically the cap is at that. So the cap is almost at 50k. Now, they have extended the period of maternity leave. So your job is secure for a whole 18 months. And you can also split that time between both the husband and wife.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that's fair. That's nice, because yeah, it isn't always the mom that stays home.
Terri Fry: No, and you know what, the good thing about that is I hear so many-
Jennifer Tracy: With same sex parents, yeah.
Terri Fry: Exactly, they can share it. I've heard so many people tell me that having their husband stay at home with them for the first couple of months when they've had the baby was still helpful, because you need the help.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my God, I would probably still be married if my husband had been able to do that.
Terri Fry: Yeah, absolutely, right.
Jennifer Tracy: I mean serious like that was our undoing was him ... He had to go to work immediately. He went back to work two days after our son was born and never stopped.
Terri Fry: It's just hard. It's hard in hear.
Jennifer Tracy: It's really hard, yeah. It's hard on him.
Terri Fry: And we put on ... And it's hard on both of you, right? Like it's hard in different ways and we generally end up taking the full year of maternity leave. Women take a longer portion. I know that's hard on my husband too. He doesn't get to bond with the baby in the same way that I got to. I mean, I gave birth.
Jennifer Tracy: You're kidding, well and you're breastfeeding. Did you breastfeed?
Terri Fry: Yeah, I did for my second one, not the first one, but yeah. So even after I went back to work, I was pumping at work. I was still breastfeeding.
Jennifer Tracy: That's the whole thing too.
Terri Fry: It's a whole thing.
Jennifer Tracy: It's a whole thing. And did you experience any postpartum depression, anxiety, things like that?
Terri Fry: I did with my first one because my delivery ... Oops, sorry.
Jennifer Tracy: Don't worry.
Terri Fry: I have 11/11 alarm on my clock everyday.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, I Love that. I always catch it. I always just catch it on something then-
Terri Fry: I used to keep missing it. So I have it now because it's just like a boost of positivity in that time of the day for me, I'm like, "I get to make a wish."
Jennifer Tracy: I love that.
Terri Fry: After my first child ... Like my birth did not go the way I planned it. I was in labor for over 30 hours.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, wow.
Terri Fry: I had contractions over six to seven minutes long.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, honey.
Terri Fry: And my midwife won't believe me at first because that's just unheard of, until I went to the hospital and they hooked me up. And they were shocked that these contractions really were lasting five to six, six to five minutes long.
Jennifer Tracy: My God that is long.
Terri Fry: It is so long. They ended up having to break my water. They ended up having to induce me. And then, my firstborn's heart rate was fluctuating up and down like crazy. They tried to stabilize it for 80 minutes. I ended up going into an emergency C-section. They couldn't do it with me awake. They had to put me under-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, Terri.
Terri Fry: And then I didn't see my child until 17 hours after he was born.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God, honey.
Terri Fry: And everybody got to see him, after all that. So everybody in the world got to see my son. I had to be pointed out who my child is. Like people were offering pictures and I said, "I don't want to see a picture." And then, I had just envisioned having a natural birth, I envisioned I'd be breastfeeding because it's so natural, which it isn't. It requires a lot of work, right?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, it does.
Terri Fry: And I did not get introduced to breastfeeding because I was so sick, until day three, then he wouldn't latch. He was a 10-pound baby. He was the big boy. And all of that basically set me up for the year, for the next two years of feeling less of a woman because the two things that society has told us that were meant to do, is give birth vaginally and be able to breastfeed your child. I couldn't do both those things and I didn't see my child until 17 hours later.
Terri Fry: So I suffered, in a way, that I wasn't ... Depression looks different for everybody. That was major PTSD for me. It took me the birth of my second child, which was another crazy experience, but just going through it and realizing that these things are just out of my control and I did what I could. And this is just how it's meant to be. It took me all of that to come to terms with it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. And I have to say, I've heard that, not your exact story, but versions of that so many times on the show, but also in person. It's this unwritten pressure to just ... A couple of weeks ago, my friend, Lily, was on the show and she had a similar experience where she had thought her first birth would be this ... birthing her first child would be this ... She was joking like, "I thought I would just go in the woods and squat and I would give birth and then I would clean up after myself and he would latch on and we would walk off into the sunset." And I just have to say this, I feel like there's a real ... And this is, I think, pretty universal.
Jennifer Tracy: In the medical community, and maybe even in the midwife, I just feel like there's not enough after care for the mental maternal health of both parents or however many parents are involved. Do you know what saying?
Terri Fry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Tracy: There just isn't. It's just like, "Okay, you're medically check out, you're fine, your baby checks out, bye."
Terri Fry: That's not the end.
Jennifer Tracy: There's no like social worker that ... I'm just inventing what I wish I would have had, that comes to your house and says, "Hey, just wanted to check like, how are you feeling? Are you eating? Are you sleeping?" This is like the most massive transition you're ever going to have in your life.
Terri Fry: Absolutely. I mean, everything changes. No matter what people tell you, nobody can prepare you for-
Jennifer Tracy: Nobody can prepare you, yeah.
Terri Fry: ... what you go through. The other thing is like, yeah, there's conversations around it and if you are willing and able to recognize on your own, what the signs are, it's not going to happen.
Jennifer Tracy: No.
Terri Fry: So I think medical practitioners need to be able to probe and see the signs. You don't have to be a therapist, but they need to go through some training where they can probe and see the signs without the parents coming forward and saying, "I think I'm going for this." Because half the time we don't know until you get out of it and then you come to terms and you reflect and you realize this is what you went through.
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely.
Terri Fry: And I think that's a big gap. I don't know how it is over there. I remember, in the hospital in my early stages of pregnancy, I had to fill out a form that said, "Was this a forced pregnancy? Do you have support? Is your partner supportive? At least to check boxes.
Jennifer Tracy: Interesting.
Terri Fry: They took it and filed in a way.
Jennifer Tracy: I didn't have one ... Yeah, they probably never looked at it. It's just like [lugo 00:34:06] or something.
Terri Fry: Protocol.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. No, it's so true. And I think you're right. I think there's something where it just ... Yeah, I just wish I would've had more support. Because, again, I had this idea that I was supposed to be just this blissed out mom, just like, "Oh, everything's easy." And that was just the opposite of my experience. I was just absolutely terrified every moment I was, for sure he was going to die. I was for sure he was going to die in his sleep or I was going to do something wrong or just constant anxiety and fear, and then add the fatigue on top of it. No, there's no ...
Jennifer Tracy: The only thing they showed me was, I think they made me sign something or it said, "Don't shake your baby." And I remember they gave me this pamphlet, it was like, "Don't shake your baby." And it showed like drawings of someone shaking a baby and what it could do to the baby and the damage. And I thought, "Oh, who would shake their baby?" And then I got home and I thought, "I know why they gave me that," but I needed so much more support than just the pamphlet that said, "Don't shake your baby."
Terri Fry: Yeah. They need to upgrade the books, they need to upgrade the knowledge. I think, as a community of moms, we have done a better job at being vocal.
Jennifer Tracy: I do too, yeah.
Terri Fry: However, there needs to be a step up that's required from the medical community.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Terri Fry: And that's still really lacking. So all this conversation is great, but as a new mom, someone who's going through a pregnancy for the first time, I'm not sure if I'm looking for those sources. I'm looking for what's happening in my first, second, third, fourth month. And what's the size of the baby? You're focused so much on those things. Do I know how to reach out and find the right help for my mental health? Am I even thinking about it?
Jennifer Tracy: No.
Terri Fry: Probably not. And then eventually these moms, after you go through your first pregnancy, you become a mom. Then you stumble upon these communities, because now you're connecting with people who already parents and not moms to be. So that's when you start learning about it and that needs to change and it needs to start from the medical community.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, I 100% agree. I 100% agree. And I don't know what we can do to help spearhead that, but if anybody knows, please reach out to me and I'm behind it 100%. I think it's crucial.
Terri Fry: Me too.
Jennifer Tracy: And just to your point of like, you're not looking for that. I'm someone who's in recovery. I'm sober coming up on 21 years. And so I know how to reach out for help. I've been in therapy, I know all that and I still didn't recognize what was happening to me. I thought it was me. I thought I was lacking. I thought something was deficient in me. And so that says a lot to me. And I have friends also who are therapists and in the medical community and they went through it and didn't immediately go for help. You just don't. It just should be like a mandated mental health check on new moms.
Terri Fry: Absolutely.
Jennifer Tracy: I don't know when or if that's going to happen. Okay. So you went through a lot with both the births, the births of all your children?
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: While maintaining a marriage, while maintaining a career?
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: And then, how old are your kids now?
Terri Fry: Six and four.
Jennifer Tracy: Six and four. Yeah, they're still really little. You're still doing it.
Terri Fry: They're still little. But they're at the stage now where I can finally get independence back. It's so good.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yes. They're both going to the bathroom by themselves like that, just not having to wipe a butt. It's a huge deal.
Terri Fry: Oh, my God, yeah. This summer has probably been one of the best summers since I've had kids. Because, every summer I've been focused on kids. But this summer I focused on me too. I took girls trips. I'd lots of girls night out. My husband and I had nights out without the kids. It was a good blend. It's not like all like that's all I did. But it was nice to have your own freedom and be your own person.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, God. Oh, yeah, it's crucial. It's crucial.
Terri Fry: So important.
Jennifer Tracy: Really. Otherwise, it's just the alternative it's pretty bleak. I mean, for me. I love my kid so much. He's actually in the other room laying on the couch because he's home sick today. But I need time apart from him and he needs it too.
Terri Fry: Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer Tracy: You know it's just not healthy to-
Terri Fry: I think too much time with anybody is not healthy, even by yourself. It's not healthy. Like I need the right amount of time with my husband, right amount of time by myself, with the kids, friends work, that's all needed.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. And so how did ... Speaking of your husband, I know for me having a child, obviously, everyone who listens or I think you do, if unless this is your first episode, I'm divorced.
Terri Fry: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: But having a baby for me it really unveiled the cracks in our marriage and we really tried so hard. We tried so hard, we tried so much therapy and so many things. But how did having kids shift and change your relationship with your husband?
Terri Fry: I think it changed it a lot and so many different ways. I mean, sexually it changed a lot, especially in the beginning where you just focused on just staying alive and just keeping your child alive. And when your time ... We were the couple who were very focused on date nights. We had date nights a lot. Even with our first child, we used to go on weekly date nights. And then when you brought the second one in, that changed, because it's easy to ask my parents to watch one child. It's harder to ask them to watch a newborn and a two-year-old. So much harder.
Terri Fry: And that took a toll on us because we forgot about us. We were more focused on the kids and just kind of going through the motions of just getting through the day, getting through the things or things we had to do. And it was to the point where we both didn't see the signs for a very long time that our marriage was in trouble. And eventually, I think, it was me who got tired and I said, "I can't do this. I want a divorce. I'm done. I want to be separated." We went through a separation for over a year under the same roof, which is even harder. And just-
Jennifer Tracy: What does that look like? A separation, but living under the same roof. What are the rules around that? If I can ask.
Terri Fry: So we don't have sex. Well, we did some times, but we're not sleeping in the same bed. We're not having dinners together or anything. We're there together for the kids, but our conversation was really cut off and it wasn't that something we had to force. We just didn't do it because if we did we'd just fight or someone's getting hurt. And our working hours were separate, like different. So it was easier that we didn't have to see each other as often.
Jennifer Tracy: So you were like roommates.
Terri Fry: Roommates who-
Jennifer Tracy: Who ran a business of having children together?
Terri Fry: Exactly. And that's exactly how I described it to him. When we went for the initial conversation, I said, "We've become roommates, who pay bills and have to take care of two kids together. This is what our relationship has come down to." And it was really hard because I was convinced like this is it. I cannot do this whereas he wanted to try, he wanted to step up his game and really be there for us and the kids and at home really be present.
Terri Fry: And then I don't know what it was. I went to Tanzania for work. I was gone for three weeks. I had a full break from everybody, no contact, nothing. And then I came back and I said ... And this was just last, not this summer, but the summer before, I came back and I said, "I want to try and I want to make this work." And he was obviously all game for it.
Terri Fry: And the other thing that changed for me was I think that was the first time I decided, since being married, that I'm going to start living for myself. I need to put me first. I think in the process, when you're so busy taking care of kids and as women, we've been trained by society to take care of the husband and the household. We're the keen keepers. We're doing so much. I think I was so absorbed in living in his world and the kid's world where I forgot about myself completely and I took that back. I said, "I'm not going to live my life that way. I'm going to put me first and is going to benefit the kids. It's going to benefit the family, it's going to benefit him." I started a podcast. I decided to start a podcast after it came back. All of those things happen where I really took control of me again. And I think that was a pivotal moment for us where we both encouraged each other to live for ourselves first. So that was key, but that was a hard year. That was the brutal year of just trying to be out of it, but still be in it. And in Canada, you have to be separated for a full year in different houses before you can file for divorce.
Jennifer Tracy: Interesting.
Terri Fry: Yeah. So we knew that even if we just separated and moved out, we'd still have to wait another year.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow. You guys have a lot of really great stuff.
Terri Fry: Oh, thanks.
Jennifer Tracy: I mean, it's like the year maternity leave, that's really smart, but all those things are very smart.
Terri Fry: And weed is legal. Weed's legal in California too, right?
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. It's legal in all of Canada though, right?
Terri Fry: Yes, it's all of Canada. You can actually smoke it the way you smoke cigarettes. So cigarettes are allowed somewhere or vaping is allowed somewhere, you can smoke weed there.
Jennifer Tracy: Interesting.
Terri Fry: Yeah, I mean that's a whole other conversation there.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, I think that's great. Even though I don't smoke weed, but I do believe in the ... It's funny, I don't usually talk about this on the show. I don't talk about like politics or anything like that, but yeah, it's just the medicinal qualities of it and there's just so much research out there that it should just be legal everywhere. It's silly.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. So you guys worked that out and how are things now?
Terri Fry: I think there's a great, we go through ups and downs where we need to really remind ourselves. Just a few months ago, we went through ups and downs again and I think it's anytime there's a major change in my life or his life, that's when the downs happen. And I think that's really natural. A few months, about in April, I started a new job. I was away from home a lot and I was always tired. I was missing my family. I'm trying to maintain myself and that's where it went straight down because I felt alone. And I think that's something that we've been able to recognize that when we feel alone, we're still trying to figure out how to be there for each other and without being overbearing.
Terri Fry: But overall, the relationship's really good. We're still going to fight. I'm sure we might try to get divorced again in 10 years from now. Like no relationship is perfect. It's really good, in the sense that, we're able to talk about it and we're able to be vocal about the fact that we've had problems. And the biggest learning that we've had from all of this has been that, society has design ... The way it's designed for marriages is that it doesn't allow you to grow through setbacks. And that's why we don't vocalize these things that often.
Terri Fry: Because if there's something about signing that piece of paper when you're married. Before that, when you have problems with your partner, you're more likely to vocalize it, "Oh my God. He's getting on my nerves. We're not getting along. This is too much," but when you sign that piece of paper, society expects things to be perfect. So you stop vocalizing your problems. The problems are like a perfectly normal part of having any relationship, whether it's a work relationship, or friendship, or a sexual love relationship, whatever you want to call it. And that's the biggest thing that we recognize is that we're going to grow through the setbacks. As long as we want to work on it.
Jennifer Tracy: It's so true. And it's just ... I don't know what that is. It again goes back to this idea like with giving birth and having a baby that it's just supposed to be easy and without any hiccups. And that's not true of any person on earth, maybe in the Disney movie, but even those guys have like the poison Apple or the little things that come in.
Terri Fry: I know, yeah. But that's where everything ends though, right? Happily ever after. They get together, they kiss and it's done and that's how it's supposed to be. You're not supposed to vocalize your problems. You're not supposed to have problems. That's the problem here. And talk about it. You can't talk about it. Like marriage is not a finish line, it's just the beginning of your next journey.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, oh, I love that.
Terri Fry: I just want to look different for everyone. You're going to have ups and downs. How could you not? Like that's crazy. We live under the roof with another person. You're going to want to kill them. Like kids included.
Jennifer Tracy: I love it. It's true. It's so true. There's no getting around it.
Terri Fry: There too much time with anybody.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Terri Fry: But overall, we're in such a good place. Like it's a lot of support and there's like, we're constantly have lessons to learn. We are in a really good place sexually. So that's really critical for us, at least, is having that sexual compatibility. And for me to be able to live like ... because I'm really outgoing. I'm super social and he's an introvert. So if I can't do those things and go out and have girls nights and have my own time and have my passions, passion projects, I'm going to be miserable, which is going to make him miserable. So he's really good at accommodating that too.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Well, and it sounds like you're accommodating what he needs as well?
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: He's not going to go with you all the time and he wants to stay home and that's okay. So you're going to go fly and do your thing. I love that.
Terri Fry: Yeah, but you know what, he's like starting to be a little more spontaneous because normally, it takes him a lot to make a decision and he knows I love concerts. And I think the summer, he just told me, he's like, "Oh, I bought tickets, we're going to go see Bush and live and Our Lady Peace." And we just saw them this weekend.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that's great.
Terri Fry: And that's something you wouldn't have done. He would have thought about it for a while. It's like, "Maybe, do we go? What are all the things are going to be in our way?" But he's like, "I'm going to be spontaneous like you, because you enjoy this." So yeah, that was so good. I was so proud of him.
Jennifer Tracy: I love that. That's so sweet. That's really sweet. And he's like listening to what it is that your heart desires. That's great.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: And how's the new job acclimation? Do you feel-
Terri Fry: Oh, my God, love it. It's so good. I'm in my element. I'm very strategic. I'm in a strategic consulting position and I'm highly strategic person. Just I always think about things and how to make a business grow. And this is what I'm doing. I'm in my element and he sees it. He's like, "I see you. I see how much you love this job, and I hope you stay here for a while."
Jennifer Tracy: Awesome.
Terri Fry: So it's really exciting.
Jennifer Tracy: That's so awesome, honey. Congratulations. Really cool.
Terri Fry: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: And more podcasting.
Terri Fry: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: You're going to keep on with the show. The show is so great. You guys go follow her at Mom Like That.
Terri Fry: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: Everything will be in the show notes as well. But you guys need to follow her and subscribe to her show as well. She has amazing guests and they have really fun talks and my episode is in there.
Terri Fry: Yes, for sure. And my podcast is going through some rebranding in September. We're relaunching October and inserting a many drinking games series. So I'm just having many episodes every two weeks where I get moms to gather, like we drink and we play drinking games. So I'm so tight. You have to come back for that if you'd like to drink.
Jennifer Tracy: That is hilarious. Oh, my God. Well, I don't drink, but I could play the games, but I don't drink. But I'll listen in, for sure. That sounds like a lot of fun.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: So Terri, we've come to the time when I ask the questions. I ask three questions, I ask every guest and then we go into a lightning round of questions. Are you're ready?
Terri Fry: Okay. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: What do you think about Terri when you hear the word MILF?
Terri Fry: Oh, my God. Okay. For me, the MILF is someone who is in control of her life, but also recognizing that it's okay to be out of control. I'm kind of a hot mess person, but also I have it everything I can figure out, figured out. And it just about being confident and embracing yourself and embracing the good. Like being confident in who you are, whether it's your flaws or is it things that you love about yourself and really owning all of that. And that's really how I see it.
Jennifer Tracy: I love that. What's something you've changed your mind about recently?
Terri Fry: How I see my body?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, say more.
Terri Fry: Yeah. Okay. So before I had kids, I was a size zero. I barely weight 95 pounds, but I had big boobs. I didn't have to work so hard on myself. It just came naturally. And I had this vision, I had this dress I had picked out. It's an extra small bond, a stress from Marciano I bought it and it was hanging in my closet. I said, "I'm going to wear this on my birthday." I gave birth in may and I thought I was going to wear it on my birthday in July.
Terri Fry: So that didn't happen. And I'm a completely different size now. I'm a size four, sometimes size six and I've really struggled with my body over the years. And now I finally have confidence in it. A, I look hot as hell when I wear clothes. I mean, when I don't wear clothes, my husband's watching me and he loves that. So, I can obviously work more on my confidence naked, but like I see my body more as a sexy body as opposed to all the insecurities I used to have with it.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that is awesome. Amen sister. Congratulations on that.
Terri Fry: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: We need more and more and more of that. And you are a super hot.
Terri Fry: Oh, thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: You're gorgeous. How do you define success?
Terri Fry: I think just being happy in the passions you're fulfilling. Like going for your passions and finding happiness in it. And if it doesn't make you happy, don't go for it. I don't think success as a title or how much money you make, but it's your passion projects and you just watching them grow and just loving doing them.
Jennifer Tracy: Lighting road, ocean or desert?
Terri Fry: Ocean.
Jennifer Tracy: Favorite junk food.
Terri Fry: Oh, my God. Popcorn.
Jennifer Tracy: Movies or Broadway show?
Terri Fry: Movies.
Jennifer Tracy: Daytime sex or nighttime sex?
Terri Fry: Damn it. This is hard. Daytime sex. Daytime sex.
Jennifer Tracy: You could say both.
Terri Fry: I know, it's actually both. Nighttime sex was normally drunk, so I'm like, How do I?"
Jennifer Tracy: Did I ask this? I don't know. Texting or talking?
Terri Fry: Oh, talking.
Jennifer Tracy: Cat person or dog person?
Terri Fry: Dog.
Jennifer Tracy: Have you ever worn a unitard?
Terri Fry: What's a unitard?
Jennifer Tracy: It's that thing that dancers generally wear, but people wear them out. It's like from ... It's like elastic. It's like a leotard, but it has legs. It's a leotard with legs.
Terri Fry: Oh, okay. Yes, I've totally worn that. I have many that I wear around the house.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Terri Fry: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Shower or bathtub?
Terri Fry: Shower.
Jennifer Tracy: Ice cream or chocolate?
Terri Fry: Chocolate.
Jennifer Tracy: On a scale of one to 10, how good are you at ping pong?
Terri Fry: Oh my God. Like six.
Jennifer Tracy: What's your biggest pet peeve?
Terri Fry: When people don't take ownership or accountability of things, I can't stand it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. If you could push a button and it would create 10 years of world peace, but it would also place a hundred year ban on all beauty products, would you push it?
Terri Fry: Oh, yeah. 100%.
Jennifer Tracy: Superpower choice. Invisibility, ability to fly, or super strength?
Terri Fry: Ability to fly.
Jennifer Tracy: Would you rather have six fingers on both hands or a belly button that looks like fore skin?
Terri Fry: My probably does look like fore skin, so that does no [inaudible 00:54:08]-
Jennifer Tracy: It probably answer all the time. That's so funny. What was the name of your first pet?
Terri Fry: Oh, fluffy. It was a rabbit. I stole it from the school.
Jennifer Tracy: Well, did you have to give it back?
Terri Fry: I did. I knew I had to.
Jennifer Tracy: How did you smuggle it out?
Terri Fry: I came prepared. I brought a box from home, like a shoe box. I had like grass and everything and-
Jennifer Tracy: And you planned it? You planned that?
Terri Fry: I planned it. And then I told my parents that it's because I'm such a good student they told me I could keep it and they didn't even questioned it. It was so believable. It was so believable.
Jennifer Tracy: How did you get caught? How did they find out?
Terri Fry: They knew I took it home. They saw me take it home. They kept telling me to bring it back and eventually I had to bring it back.
Jennifer Tracy: How long did you keep it?
Terri Fry: I think probably, like in my head right now, it seems like months, but it was probably a couple of weeks, yeah, assuming.
Jennifer Tracy: Fluffy.
Terri Fry: Fluffy.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, he had a good time though at your house?
Terri Fry: He did.
Jennifer Tracy: I know he was well cared for.
Terri Fry: Yeah, he was.
Jennifer Tracy: And what was the name of the street you grew up on?
Terri Fry: OOh, I don't know. I don't have a ... Okay, I'll tell you the street in Houston, I guess, what was it? Riverbend South, because I don't know the street name from Pakistan.
Jennifer Tracy: So your poor name is fluffy Riverbend.
Terri Fry: Oh, my God, I like that. I might be really bendy. That's great.
Jennifer Tracy: You're bendy and wet like a river.
Terri Fry: I know.
Jennifer Tracy: Fluffy river.
Terri Fry: I'm squirting a lot of river.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God, Terri, I just adore you. Thank you so much for being on the show.
Terri Fry: Oh, thanks so much for having me. This was so much fun.
Jennifer Tracy: Hey guys, I really hope you enjoyed my conversation with Terri. Join me next week when I have Christine Sarno on the show. Christine Joy Luck Sarno, who is one of the sexiest women I've ever laid eyes on. Truly. And when I came to her house, she had a beautiful charcuterie and cheese plate for me. Hi. Yeah, I didn't ever want to leave. Remember to go to clutchgifs.com, check it out, and when you go to checkout in your checkout cart ... It's a lot of checkouts, use your VIP code MILF15 for 15% off. I love you guys so much. Thanks for listening.