Paria Hassouri: After we left Madison and we went to Pittsburgh. I mean, again, I was one of the only brown kids in a very white neighborhood. And Pittsburgh was much better than Madison, but I think that year of being bullied shatters your confidence to a point where you just have a hard time assimilating after that. So I had a pretty hard middle school and high school experience.
Speaker 2: You are listening to the MILF Podcast. This is the show where we talk about motherhood and sexuality with amazing women with fascinating stories to share on the joys of being a MILF. Now here's your host, the MILFiest MILF I know, Jennifer Tracy.
Jennifer Tracy: Hey guys. Welcome back to the show. This is MILF Podcast, the show where we talk about motherhood, entrepreneurship, sexuality, and everything in between. I'm your host, Jennifer Tracy. Today on the show we have Paria Hassouri. Paria actually came to me through Tembi Locke, author of From Scratch, whom I just fell so in love with. Not only reading her book right before I met her, but then when I met her I fell in love with her. And then a couple of weeks later we were at an event together and she said, "Hey, I met this incredible mom, this woman. And I think she'd be great for your show." And I said, "Great."
Jennifer Tracy: So she hooked me up with Paria. I went to Paria's home, and I got to learn about her story. And it's just remarkable. Paria is a mother of three, she's a pediatrician here in Los Angeles. Two years ago, her middle child came out as transgender. That was her own journey and you'll hear her talk about that in our interview. And now Paria is using her voice to spread awareness and be a trans rights advocate. And she's writing a memoir called Found in Transition about her own evolution during her daughter's transition. She's incredible. She's just so incredible. So I'm just so honored that she made the time in her busy schedule to talk to me and to be on the show. And what an important story, what an important story to tell.
Jennifer Tracy: So this is the last week in August. I feel like such a broken record because I say this all the time, but I just can't even believe it. So this month's give was and still is every mother counts. Again, you can find a link to them on my page, milfpodcast.com. And donate to them. Get involved somehow. They're doing amazing things, helping mothers everywhere get the care that they need for prenatal, birth, and postnatal care that is so lacking in so many countries.
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Jennifer Tracy: Not only that, but Tracy and Molly have generously offered my listeners 15% discount using the code MILF 15 through September 30th, 2019. So I highly recommend getting on there and shopping. It's so fun just even to browse around their site at clutchgifts.com. There'll be a link to that on the show notes page. Also on the bottom of my website, there's all the sponsors that I have. So you'll see them there and you can easily find them on my website. So enjoy that. But for right now, please enjoy my conversation with Paria Hassouri.
Jennifer Tracy: Hi Paria.
Paria Hassouri: Hi.
Jennifer Tracy: Thank you so much for being here.
Paria Hassouri: Thank you for doing this.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm so honored. I'm honored to be in your home, I'm honored to meet you.
Paria Hassouri: Well, it's great for me to do this. I'm really excited to do it and excited that we're doing this in person and sitting face to face and having a conversation.
Jennifer Tracy: It's so nice, right?
Paria Hassouri: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Isn't that so rare now?
Paria Hassouri: It is really rare. So, yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Good. I know, I'm honored. So let's start from the beginning of you. So where were you born?
Paria Hassouri: I was actually born in Baltimore, Maryland. But when I was three, my family's originally Iranian. And when I was three, we moved back to Iran and then we came back when I was 10 years old.
Jennifer Tracy: And what was the impetus to move back when you were three? Jobs?
Paria Hassouri: Actually, my parents had come here temporarily. My father is a neurologist, so he was doing his residence. He had come to the U.S. just to do his residency training. And then when it was over, they went back. And then there was an Iran-Iraq war and all this stuff basically caused them to come back.
Paria Hassouri: So when they were originally here, it was just for, they weren't planning to stay. It was just for my dad to do his residency and I happened to be born during that time.
Jennifer Tracy: So do you have dual citizenship?
Paria Hassouri: I do have dual citizenship, although the U.S. doesn't recognize dual citizenship with Iran.
Jennifer Tracy: Of course, of course.
Paria Hassouri: So I'm the only one in my family who was born, and my parents, between my parents, three kids, who was born here. And actually my U.S. citizenship helped them leave again, helped them be able to get back to the states after the war. So that actually worked out-
Jennifer Tracy: Was a godsend. Right. So you moved back again. How old were you when you moved back?
Paria Hassouri: We moved back when I was 10. I lived in Madison, Wisconsin for a year. And that's because when we moved back, my mom had a sister who lived there. So that was the only place we knew to go. And then my father got a job in Pittsburgh. So I actually grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania for most of my formative years, from 11 to mid to late twenties.
Jennifer Tracy: What was that like? Pittsburgh.
Paria Hassouri: That's a whole, whole other thing. So Pittsburgh now is probably a lot better than when I lived in Pittsburgh.
Jennifer Tracy: And what was it, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. What was it like specifically growing up as an Iranian little girl? Am I saying that correctly?
Paria Hassouri: Yes. Correct.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. An Iranian little girl in a family that was ex-pats from, what was that like at that time? I'm guessing in the '80s, '90s.
Paria Hassouri: So the year that, we moved back in 1983. So it was actually just shortly after there was a whole Iran hostage crisis. So the one year that I lived in Madison, Wisconsin was fifth grade. I moved back fifth grade. I was severely bullied that year. It was pretty terrible. And that actually really has impacted me my whole life. [crosstalk 00:07:11] After we left Madison and we went to Pittsburgh, I mean again, I was one of the only brown kids in a very white neighborhood. And Pittsburgh was much better than Madison. But I think that year of being bullied shatters your confidence to a point where you just have a hard time assimilating after that. So I had a pretty hard middle school and high school experience.
Jennifer Tracy: And it's hard enough.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: But to add that to it. And how about your brother, you had a brother and sister?
Paria Hassouri: I have two sisters.
Jennifer Tracy: Two sisters. How did they fare?
Paria Hassouri: I did somehow the worst. My older sister's a couple of years older than me, so she was just a little bit more secure as a person I think when we got here. And my younger sister was only two when we came here. So I think she had an easier time. They both had certain difficulties, but I had the hardest-
Jennifer Tracy: You landed right when kids start to be the shittiest. I mean, really. I have a 10 year old boy. I'm very fortunate that he's in a very small school where the classes are very small and the teachers just do not tolerate any BS. But I can see these kids. I'm like, "God, they're mean to each other the way they."
Jennifer Tracy: So yeah, I can imagine, and especially back then where there was just so much less awareness and at that time politically. So wow. So did that kind of make you a little more inverted than you had originally been? Introverted.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah, it definitely did for a lot of years. And then I think in college I sort of really made a conscious decision towards the end of high school that I was going to reinvent myself for college. And I did that. And I think even though I did that, but there's a part of me that's always sort of carried the just the insecurity of what happened in the past with me. And honestly that now I'm 46, it really took until after 40 for me to get over all that. In the last couple of years, I probably came to terms with it. And I think I finally was forced to put it to rest in the last couple of years. And actually, I guess we'll get into this. But what forced me to put it to rest was ... so I'm writing a book about, and it sort of weaves my own experience with my middle child, my daughter's experience.
Paria Hassouri: So I think my middle child who's now almost 16, but she came out as transgender at 13. And when you have been on the outside and bullied, and experienced being an outsider. The worst thing that can happen is for your child to be someone that you think is going to be the absolute worst outsider currently in the united-
Jennifer Tracy: Targeted, literally targeted. Yeah.
Paria Hassouri: So it took me a while to accept it, and I realize that part of not accepting it was I was so scared for her and I was parenting her with fear instead of with love. And I finally had to come to terms with the fact that I was projecting all my own fears about my difficulties onto her and thinking hers is going to be 10 times worse than mine. So I just felt frozen, you know? So as she sort of went through her transition, I finally had to grow up at 45, to land where I am today.
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely. Yeah. I can relate to that. This is totally different and on a different level, but I have anxiety and depression. And my son, he has anxiety and some panic stuff. And there's nothing like raising a child through a difficulty to make you look at your own shit.
Paria Hassouri: Absolutely.
Jennifer Tracy: So I can only imagine what that was like for you both, and your whole family. So let's talk a little bit about that. So what was the beginning of that like? Let's talk about, so you have three children.
Paria Hassouri: I have three kids. Yeah. One has just graduated high school. He's going to go to NYU in the fall.
Jennifer Tracy: Awesome.
Paria Hassouri: Which I'm very excited about because I love New York [crosstalk 00:11:23] than getting to go back and forth between L.A. and New York. So that's great. And then I had my middle one.
Jennifer Tracy: Whom I just met.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. She was the one, she was already up the steps on the balcony. I think you met my youngest was at the door. So she is starting her junior year. And then my youngest is starting eighth grade.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, got it.
Paria Hassouri: So I have three. They're I guess almost 18, almost 16, and almost 13.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
Paria Hassouri: So my middle one, my daughter, she came out when she was 13. But part of sort of why I've started writing a book is that she had actually zero what I would consider signs of being transgender before she was 13.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Paria Hassouri: So that when she did come out, my husband and I were completely blindsided and shock, and in denial, and we thought it was just an attention getting phase, and all of this. So later on, and especially for me, I'm also a pediatrician. And there was this part of me that couldn't accept that as a pediatrician and a mother, I would have no clue what's going on with my child and that I would be blindsided by something. So I just thought it was trying to get attention or a phase, or confusion, or something like that. Because she didn't have any of the signs. Usually you would traditionally associate with being transgender, which would be wanting to do traditionally opposite gender things when you're younger like three, four, five, six. But she never wanted to grow her hair, or play with dolls, or take a dance class, or play with her younger sister's toys. Any of the things that I would've thought would be signs.
Jennifer Tracy: Sure.
Paria Hassouri: And the other thing would be that a lot of times you'll hear stories about trans kids in the media who are coming out later and they'll say, "Well I kind of knew, but I just didn't tell anybody." So even if there weren't signs, they felt that they knew from beforehand. And she really didn't know until she started puberty.
Paria Hassouri: And then as this happened to me and I started really forcing myself to research and learn, I learned that about 50% of trans people don't really present until puberty or later, and that they don't have any signs when they're little kids. Or not what we think are typical signs.
Jennifer Tracy: Right.
Paria Hassouri: And that really isn't until their body starts going through puberty that suddenly this doesn't feel right. And that before puberty, they might be perfectly fine and happy, and you may not know it.
Jennifer Tracy: Right.
Paria Hassouri: Then I started going to a support group for trans families. And the more I started hearing about other stories of kids who didn't have signs when they were younger, the more I was frustrated that these stories weren't out in the media, that most of the stories out in the media are about people who present when they're toddlers, or five, or six.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Paria Hassouri: And I felt like a big part of my denial and a big part of other parents that I would see that were having a hard time accepting it, is because they hadn't seen these other sets of kids and young adults.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Paria Hassouri: And they hadn't been exposed to it and that their stories weren't really being told.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Paria Hassouri: So that's when I sort of started just telling our story and writing about it a little bit, then decided to write a book just to increase the type of different narratives that are out there. Because there isn't one way to be trans. There isn't one way to present as trans. There's so many ways. And so that's-
Jennifer Tracy: That's incredible. That's so inspiring. So what was it along this journey that sort of, as you were just saying, you were shocked, your husband was shocked. You guys weren't convinced that it was real. What happened along the way to sort of shift you into realizing she really means it?
Paria Hassouri: There was probably about six months of denial, and then it got to the point where you really couldn't. She was sort of escalating things in terms of just experimenting with her clothing more and going for it. And then she was also depressed because we weren't accepting it. So for every parent who's going through this, there comes a point where you have to really look at your child and think, I mean, there was a point where I had to ask myself, I came to the realization that if I kept continuing to be in denial, one day I would get some horrible phone call that she's done something to herself. So it was like, am I going to sit around and wait for that phone call or am I going to take action and do something?
Paria Hassouri: But I think what really ... so one, just the fact that things were progressing and there was no ignoring it. But really, what helped me the most was going to a support group for families of trans kids and hearing other ... at a certain point, it didn't matter what my daughter told me. I had to hear what other mothers and parents had to say. And hear are other mothers and parents repeatedly say the same story. "My kid didn't have any signs until they were 15. It came out of the blue. If I racked my brains about their past, there was nothing there." And repeatedly hearing those stories and seeing that we're not the only ones who have this story is really what ultimately changed things for me and made me say if all these other people who look like involved, intelligent, regular, caring parents were blindsided, it's not just me, and I need to start actually listening to my kid. And I really think that there wasn't really that much more she could've told me. I had to hear other mothers.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. That makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. I think it's that way just for me, it's been that way from the beginning of motherhood with everything. I felt like I was just thrown into a pit with my baby. I didn't know what I was doing. And I would always, that's why I called the podcast moms I'd like to follow. Because anytime I had a thing, I would call up a mom I respected and say, "I'm clueless. How do I do this?" So I think that's important. For our listeners who may be going through this, where can they find this kind of resource?
Paria Hassouri: Well fortunately, there's so much information online. In Los Angeles area, transformingfamily.org is the support group for parents of trans families, and they have a monthly meeting. I'm sure they have it across the U.S. Not name Transforming Family, but other, there has to be support groups and resources across. Maybe in some of the smaller states or-
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, they may not have reached there, yeah. But what we'll do is I have an amazing show notes writer Kevin, and he and I can research it and just find, we always add things like that in the show notes. So if you're listening, we'll add the link that Paria just mentioned, and then we'll add some other resources to find. Because I think that you bring up such a brilliant point is that what helped you feel less alone in this and more at peace with it was finding other families going through the same thing.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. The National Center for Transgender Equality is a huge resource, and they can probably connect people with support groups across the U.S. But I'm sure hopefully there's a networking system.
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely. Wow. So then you started writing about it. And you started talking about it. And your daughter was supportive of that, I'm assuming?
Paria Hassouri: I had to sort of okay everything with her obviously before it happened. So she knew exactly what I was going to be writing. I wrote a couple of articles, told her what I was writing first. Even with my book, I told her this is going to be the timeframe of my book. I'm going to start it on this day and end it on this day, and I'm not going to go past this day because then the rest is sort of your story, whether you decide to tell or not. So I really started it on the day she came out and ended it on the day she had her legal name and gender change. So it's a 17 month period. There's so much I could include from after that, but I just made the decision I was going to stop it when she had her legal name and gender change. So that the rest, she can decide one day if she wants to tell or not. But that it was really more about my journey during her transition, and how I went from complete denial, and grief, and devastation. To not just accepting it, but really thriving with what's happened.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. And as you are as evident in everything that I've seen in that you've shared with me before the podcast, really celebrating this.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so powerful what you can do if you just decide to open your mind and change your mindset about how you [inaudible 00:20:46]. I think the biggest thing for me is just fear about what is her future going to be. And I've just had to stop living in fear. I just had to, I still have some fear and worry. I used to worry that maybe she would end up alone, or not find someone. And that I don't worry about at all anymore. She has so many friends, and young people are so amazing these days. She actually since she came out, she has so many more friends and I have zero worry about that. I still have some worries about her safety. I'm a little more cautious with those things. She'll take the public bus to go places, and I don't let her take it after dark. I don't put her in a Lyft alone. I take a little extra precautions with her that I didn't with my older one. So I still have a little bit of the safety fear, but I'm not in any way worried that she will ever be lonely or not find, but she has friends and I'm not worried about her finding a partner one day or any of that. That is not even the tiniest bit of a concern.
Jennifer Tracy: And you probably know a lot more about these stats, but I would imagine that Los Angeles is probably one of the best places to be as far as a community, trans community.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah, L.A. is great. Obviously San Francisco is great. Portland and Seattle are actually on this, [inaudible 00:22:13] really great. I think Seattle has a huge community. So yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: I mean so great that you guys are here and really central.
Paria Hassouri: I think hopefully, for me growing up, I grew up in Pittsburgh. I consciously made the decision that I would move out to Los Angeles one day.
Jennifer Tracy: You did, you always knew?
Paria Hassouri: Well, yeah. So I had an aunt who lived here and I used to visit her. And every time I would visit L.A., I would feel so comfortable because it was like a melting pot and there was so much diversity.
Jennifer Tracy: You weren't the only woman of color, or child or color?
Paria Hassouri: Right. So I moved to L.A. I made a conscious decision that I'm going to move to L.A. and have children in L.A., and that's where I'm going to live. Hopefully there's a day where it's like we don't have to be limited. I don't want her to say well ... college is only a few years away. So when it's time for college, we are going to only be looking at cities where I know she's going to find support. A network.
Jennifer Tracy: And luckily there's so many colleges and all of those places.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. But hopefully, there's [crosstalk 00:23:22] wherever they live.
Jennifer Tracy: Exactly. Don't have to think about that.
Paria Hassouri: Don't have to think about those things. Or that you can just live anywhere in the U.S. and blend in, and have a good support network.
Jennifer Tracy: I don't think we're that far. 2020 election, please God let it be positive. But I don't think we're that far. I do think our kid's kids could see that.
Paria Hassouri: Right.
Jennifer Tracy: I really do think that.
Paria Hassouri: I do too.
Jennifer Tracy: And I know I live in a bubble. I've been living in West Hollywood for 20 years. My kid has grown up knowing how to name everything. There's no what's gay, what's trans? He's known that since he could speak, so I feel very fortunate in that regard. Because we're as white as white gets. And if we were somewhere else, he wouldn't see anyone else that looked any different than he does. So yeah, I can only imagine, but that's just so remarkable and I can't wait for your book. It's so amazing. It's not easy writing a book, but you're doing it. Yeah. That's so great. Did you always know you wanted to be a pediatrician?
Paria Hassouri: I think with a lot of immigrants, you get sort of pushed towards a professional track. So my father was a physician. I was good in math in science. So I sort of assumed that I would just become a doctor because I felt a certain amount of expectation to become one.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Paria Hassouri: It's interesting because now I think about a lot. I think when you're a woman in your forties, you're reevaluating your whole life.
Jennifer Tracy: Sure. Oh yeah.
Paria Hassouri: So I think a lot about at what point did I make active decisions in my life, and did I actively choose to become a doctor? And I don't really think that I did. I do think that I actively chose to become a pediatrician. Once I went through medical school and started doing my rotations, I always love kids. I mean I grew up, all I wanted to be was a mother. Which would really frustrate my own mom because all she wanted was all her kids to be professionals, you know? Because she had dropped out of grad school once you got pregnant with me, so of course you want for your kids what you didn't complete.
Paria Hassouri: But once I got to medical school and started doing my rotations, I already loved kids. I knew I was either going to be a pediatrician or not be a doctor.
Jennifer Tracy: Interesting.
Paria Hassouri: And I think one I love kids, and I really love talking to other parents. I think being a pediatrician is just a lot of handholding and reassurance to parents, you're doing great whatever you're doing.
Jennifer Tracy: I love our pediatrician also Dr. [Kramer 00:26:08].
Paria Hassouri: Oh yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: You know her?
Paria Hassouri: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: And I just thank goodness for all the times I would just call and be like, especially when he was a newborn. I just felt so inept. And she would just reassure me. "He's fine. He's getting enough milk," or whatever it was. But it's a really important role. So how long have you been practicing?
Paria Hassouri: 17 years.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. It's kind of crazy that it flies by.
Jennifer Tracy: Doesn't it?
Paria Hassouri: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, it really does.
Paria Hassouri: A long time.
Jennifer Tracy: So your oldest is 19? 18.
Paria Hassouri: Almost 18. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my gosh.
Paria Hassouri: So I had him during my last year of residency.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, got it.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay wow. Yeah. You were young. You started young.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. I was 28 when I had him-
Jennifer Tracy: Which is young now by today's standards.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. At that time, we were living in Cleveland. I was not necessarily a young mama at that time. It's crazy. Now I see 28 year old moms once in a while. Rarely do I see a mom in her twenties anymore. And when I do I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this person's a baby having a baby."
Jennifer Tracy: I know. Isn't that funny? And what do you attribute that to as a physician or just as a person? Just because you see it day in and day out. What do you attribute that age? Because it's gotten later and later.
Paria Hassouri: Well I think it takes longer to just figure out who you are, go to school. Just getting through school, putting yourself through school, then figuring things out. And then I think also, people are pursuing their passions and interests more before having children right away, which is great.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Paria Hassouri: I think you either do that first and then you have a kid, or you don't and you have kids and then you're suddenly in your forties and you're like, "Wait, where am I in this?" You do it and you try to figure it out later.
Jennifer Tracy: Because you can't really do it right after you have the kid.
Paria Hassouri: No, you can't. No, you can'.
Jennifer Tracy: You are in that thing. Whether you're a stay at home mom, which I hate that phrase. I wish we'd come up with a new phrase. Because there is no stay at home. There's no staying at home.
Paria Hassouri: No.
Jennifer Tracy: Home is like bon bons and furry slippers or something. And how did this experience shift your perspective as a pediatrician?
Paria Hassouri: It really shifts your perspective on everything.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah of course.
Paria Hassouri: But I think even as a pediatrician, we certainly don't train pediatricians about gender and the spectrum that gender lies on.
Jennifer Tracy: Do you think that's going to change now?
Paria Hassouri: Just in the last, I have an op ed coming out in the LA Times on Wednesday I think about this that I just wrote.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. I can't wait. I'm going to repost it.
Paria Hassouri: Just September of 2018 was the first time the American Academy of Pediatrics released a statement on how to approach transgender kids and to treat them in a gender affirming approach. September of 2018, the first AAP policy statement.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
Paria Hassouri: Hopefully now in just in the last couple of years, maybe we're starting to provide a little bit of that training. But yeah, that's a long way to go. I'm sure we're probably maybe doing it better in certain cities than other places. But there's a long way to go. There's a lot to learn.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Paria Hassouri: I'm constantly still trying to read and learn. One, I just look at children differently and how much we impose gender roles on them without even realizing it. And then you just look at families you differently. Whatever it is that a family's going through, navigating difficult decisions and walking through difficult decisions. I think it certainly is going to affect me and that way. Yeah, once your child's a teenager for example, most pediatricians will speak to the child alone and. So they'll spend a little alone time with a teenager just when they go for their routine checkup. And that's usually when we're asking them, "Who are you attracted to," are they being safe, and what are they doing? And things like that. Really adding in a simple question like, do you feel comfortable in your body? Just things that we weren't taught to ask and don't ask, you know? So it's made me aware of a lot of those things.
Jennifer Tracy: And you're making me think about all the ways that, I think I'm a pretty conscious person. But obviously I have implicit bias. Well two examples. One is kind of a silly example. We were buying shoes the other day and he found these high tops, and they were pink. And he goes, "I want these ones." I said, "Okay, great." And the shoe lady looked at me and I looked at her and I was like, "Yeah, that's great. It's fine." She was looking at me for an okay, and I thought it was so interesting. And then he tried them on, they fit, and he was like, "I love these." I was like, "Cool, we'll take those and these other ones." And then he was running around the store and she said, "I just have to tell you that I think it's really cool that you let him buy those shoes." I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "Most parents will not allow their child to buy a color shoe that does not identify with their gender." And it was something that is seemingly small, but to be told no, you can't wear that color or you can't put your hair this way by your parent. That's huge.
Paria Hassouri: It's so much worse for boys. We don't let boys express themselves in any way. Little boys are the sweetest things ever. And somewhere between being a little boy and being an adult, we just shut everything down on them.
Jennifer Tracy: You got to be macho, you got to-
Paria Hassouri: It's like I don't know how we do it, but we do it. Not to generalize, but little boys are often so much sweeter than little girls. And that somewhere, something changes and they pick up the message that they can't-
Jennifer Tracy: I'm not allowed to be soft-
Paria Hassouri: They can't be soft. They can't express themselves. Girls at least if they want to be whatever, a Tomboy is, just not wear dresses and cut their hair, wear shorts and tee shirts. We sort of encourage it, you know? They're allowed to express themselves a lot more. But boys are not allowed to express themselves at all. And it's really sad.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. And it's everywhere. I mean, it really is. Even in the most kind of socially aware climates. My son was at elementary school before he was at Westmark, which is a special, I was just about to tell you, it's a specialized school for learning difference kids. Because he was diagnosed with dyslexia in second grade, really struggling. And then we found this school and it was just such a godsend.
Jennifer Tracy: But we were at this little school called the Oaks in Hollywood. And they're pretty progressive, and very socially aware of social consciousness. Even in that, you just realize how much implicit bias we all have and how much stuff we put on myself included. But it's just so nice to start seeing some more awareness around these things and support where it's like no, life's hard enough. Just wear what you want, do your hair how you want, do whatever activity makes you feel good. Now how did your family deal with this?
Paria Hassouri: My other two kids didn't miss a beat. Again, kids are amazing. So they've were just like, "Okay." My older one, my son, he was just like okay, I kind of already knew. I had sort of figured it out because from the time she came out until maybe it was maybe nine months before we really told them, she'd came out to us first, and all this stuff.
Paria Hassouri: But my younger one, she actually first got excited because she was like, "I'm going to have a sister." And then she realized she was going to lose her brother, and you kind of saw this wave of emotions go through her for a day or two. And then it was all fine. My parents, I was petrified to tell my parents. And they were surprisingly okay.
Jennifer Tracy: Are they still in Pittsburgh?
Paria Hassouri: They retired and moved to Calabasas a few years ago.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh great. So they're close by.
Paria Hassouri: So they're close by. I had been delaying telling-
Jennifer Tracy: Because I would make the assumption again, I'm making an assumption. That they're probably a bit more traditional.
Paria Hassouri: My parents are actually both pretty liberal, but it's still just culturally not something you're very exposed to. They're just older. My dad is in his seventies and my mom is almost 70 kind of thing. But as soon as I told my mom, she was like, "Okay, so that's fine. We're going to figure this out." And they were just very supportive. And my dad within two days had researched everything. I was still in denial and he had sort of researched everything and was trying to figure things out.
Jennifer Tracy: He's a man of science.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. So my mom, she thought that maybe it would be easier if she waited until college to come out because she was just worried that it's so difficult to come out in high school. I was so surprised by how. We're so lucky I have to say. I can't even imagine what it would be like. Because I didn't have a single friend, I didn't have anybody I was worried about telling. That was never the issue. The issue is I'm worried about my child. The issue was never I'm worried about my community, my friends, my coworkers. The only person I did worry about was my mom. Apparently, I didn't need to worry about her.
Paria Hassouri: So we were really lucky. Because I see other families that their friends aren't supportive or their family members aren't supportive, or you have two parents who together, one is in agreement and one is not. And then you're trying to go and get medical treatment. And both parents have to be on board when they have, and then you're getting courts involved. There's so much that can happen in this kind of scenario. And we were fortunate in many ways. One being that we just had supportive friends and family from the very beginning. And also fortunate in that a lot of the costs associated with the transition are still not covered by insurance, and it's not a financial hardship for us, which I realize how incredibly lucky we are. It's not altering our lifestyles significantly. That is huge for so many people. They can't afford care. Certain things are covered, but it's not easy. And it's not easy to get coverage for a lot of things.
Paria Hassouri: So we'd been as lucky as we can be in terms of the really, the stress has just been the going through. It is still a grief and acceptance, and a loss process. And then just that worry that are they going to be okay. No parent wants their child to have any sort of hardship whatsoever. That's your whole, you want your kid to have the best.
Jennifer Tracy: I think about, this came to my attention through this other workshop I was doing. There was a woman in the south, and her adult child had just come out, deep south. I didn't really get to uncover it because of time, but I just got the feeling that this was like the deep south, heavily Christian. And very difficult to deal with that and not a lot of support. And not a lot of funds as well. So I think to your point, it would be great if we can have a time where there's more support available everywhere. And also just more education everywhere. So I do think we'll get there, but like I said, I think it'll probably be in our grandchildren's lifetime.
Paria Hassouri: Which we're not in any rush for.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Or maybe sooner, maybe sooner. Let me correct myself. Maybe sooner.
Paria Hassouri: I think it'll take a little time.
Jennifer Tracy: I think so too. Wow. So where can we find, I know you have some stuff out there. Do you have a website where we can-
Paria Hassouri: I have a website pariahassouri.com. Just my name, which is easy. So it has a link to any articles that I've written or if I do a podcast like this will go on there.
Jennifer Tracy: Your social media links.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah. My social media, my Instagram and Twitter. I'm pretty frequently on it. I'm pretty active on Instagram like a 12 year old girl. There's a part of me that's still a 12 year old girl on Instagram and I make no apologies for it.
Paria Hassouri: So yeah, so pariahassouri.com has links to my Instagram, which is LAParia and my Twitter and all my articles. And people can also sign up to subscribe for our newsletter, which rarely goes out a few times a year. But if I publish something, I'll say, "Okay, I published this." Or, "This is what's happening with my book." THings like that.
Jennifer Tracy: Perfect. I'd love to include your, is it LA Times or New York Times that's coming out tomorrow?
Paria Hassouri: LA Times is coming out Wednesday probably.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Maybe I can include that in my newsletter this month if that's okay with you.
Paria Hassouri: Absolutely.
Jennifer Tracy: And just yeah, because I think that's so amazing. And just to get the word out and more education. So okay, cool. So we know where to find you. And where are you in the book process?
Paria Hassouri: My book is tentatively, the title is Found in Transition. And I have an agent and she's certainly, so nonfiction. All this is new to me. But for a memoir or a nonfiction, you write a nonfiction book proposal. So my proposal is currently at 10 different publishing houses. [crosstalk 00:40:29] that's sort of the phase I'm in. Just two, maybe a week and a half ago, we sent it out to the first round of people. And there's been good interest, it seems so far. So that's good news there. But the first draft is completely written. So hopefully once all that settles, maybe it'll go faster. I don't know, we'll see.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Paria Hassouri: Because I did write the entire first draft before I made a nonfiction proposal. So that's really exciting and it's sort of has the A story is Ava's transition, but the B story is really my evolution and bringing back my past, and how my past sort of colored this whole thing. And really how I had to grow up through the entire process.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow, you're a remarkable person. I'm so honored to know you.
Paria Hassouri: Thank you. I love what you're doing. I'm jealous that you get to just sit down and talk with other moms because there's so many moms doing so many amazing things.
Jennifer Tracy: So many awesome moms. I think I was reading an article in New York Times. A couple months ago, Gwyneth Paltrow was being interviewed. She said, "Ask a working mother to do it." Again, back to the stay at home mom. I don't like that term. I feel like all mothers are working mothers. I really, really, really-
Paria Hassouri: Every single one, yes.
Jennifer Tracy: There's no working or non-working. It doesn't matter whether you go to a traditional job or whether you're home with your toddlers, you are a working mother. So, she said ask a working mother to do it, which to me the translation is ask a mother to do it, "And that shit will get that done." She said, I'm quoting her. And I'm like, "You know what? Damn straight." It's so true.
Jennifer Tracy: So we've come to the time when I'm going to ask you three questions that I ask every guest, and then I'm going to ask you a lightning round of fun questions. What do you think about when you hear the word MILF?
Paria Hassouri: I have sort of this love/hate with MILF.
Jennifer Tracy: A lot of people do.
Paria Hassouri: Because I do think of it as more of a mother I'd like to follow, which to me is really a mother who's investing time in herself. That's what I find attractive is a mother who's investing time in herself and figuring herself out.
Paria Hassouri: But at the same time, I don't want any mother to feel, there shouldn't also be this pressure to be this amazing person that's going to impress other people that people want to follow. You know? I have so many conflicting feelings about it. But in general, I think of it as a mother who hasn't lost herself. And maybe that's because I had a period when I lost my self and I had to find myself. So I think of any mother who hasn't really lost herself and is pushing herself and figuring it out, is what I admire.
Jennifer Tracy: I love that. I love that. What's something you've changed your mind about recently?
Paria Hassouri: A lot of things, but I would say just recently, above death row maybe. Because recently I read this book Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson, which I don't know if you've heard about it. It's basically about this lawyer who goes to Alabama and starts defending all these people on death row who are there for absolutely no reason. It's sort of like When They See Us, the Netflix documentary. It's the same kind of thing where you just realize how much corruption is-
Jennifer Tracy: It's horrible. It's horrible.
Paria Hassouri: So yeah. So right now I would say death row.
Jennifer Tracy: How do you define success?
Paria Hassouri: I think I defined success as trying, even if there's a big chance you might fail.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Okay lightning round of questions.
Paria Hassouri: Okay.
Jennifer Tracy: Ocean or desert?
Paria Hassouri: Ocean.
Jennifer Tracy: Favorite junk food?
Paria Hassouri: French fries.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my God. Mine too. As long as they're not soggy, they got to be crispy. But I just went away this weekend for my son's birthday. I think I had literally, it was three nights. I think I had 10 different orders of French fries.
Paria Hassouri: Yes. I'll never say no to fries.
Jennifer Tracy: Me neither. Movies or Broadway show?
Paria Hassouri: Movies.
Jennifer Tracy: Daytime sex or nighttime sex? She's wincing. She's wincing.
Paria Hassouri: Daytime.
Jennifer Tracy: Texting or talking?
Paria Hassouri: Neither.
Jennifer Tracy: Silence.
Paria Hassouri: No I'm just like let's meet in person.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Paria Hassouri: Send me a quick text so we can set a date to meet in person, but not a back and forth text conversation and not a phone call.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. I've become the same way. I've learned I'm very, what's it called? Analog. I need that in-person thing. Cat person or dog person?
Paria Hassouri: Cat.
Jennifer Tracy: Have you ever worn a unitard?
Paria Hassouri: Maybe in ballet. Fifth, third, sixth grade or something.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Yes.
Paria Hassouri: Sixth grade.
Jennifer Tracy: Shower or bathtub?
Paria Hassouri: Shower. I hate a bath actually.
Jennifer Tracy: I had a guest who said, "Shower". She said, "I don't want to sit in my own filth."
Paria Hassouri: I just can't relax. I can't relax. I start thinking about all the things I'd like to do. I just can't.
Jennifer Tracy: Ice cream or chocolate?
Paria Hassouri: That's hard, but I'm going to go with the ice cream.
Jennifer Tracy: And it is as we're recording, it's 95 degrees outside. Maybe not that hot, but it's pretty hot. On a scale of one to 10, how good are you at ping pong?
Paria Hassouri: One, if that.
Jennifer Tracy: What's your biggest pet peeve?
Paria Hassouri: Tardiness.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm glad I was just on time. In fact I was one minute late, and I was like, "I'm one minute late." Because I parked at 2:44 after you gave me explicit instructions. It was like oh, and I unloaded, then I got in my car, drove up the block. And then yeah, I'm glad. Okay. I'm always on time, usually early. If you could push a button and it would make everyone in the world 7% happier, but it would also place a worldwide ban on all hairstyling products, would you push it?
Paria Hassouri: Yes, I hate hair products anyway. So yes.
Jennifer Tracy: Superpower choice? Invisibility, ability to fly, or super strength?
Paria Hassouri: Super strength.
Jennifer Tracy: Would you rather have a third eye, or six fingers on each hand?
Paria Hassouri: Oh my gosh, that's really hard. I'll go with the fingers.
Jennifer Tracy: Right? Because you could use those in your work. Hold an extra pen here or there.
Paria Hassouri: I feel like a third eye on a face would be so distracting.
Jennifer Tracy: True, that's true. But six fingers would be distracting for a minute, and then it would be, yeah. What was the name of your first pet?
Paria Hassouri: Snoopy. It was a black and white rabbit.
Jennifer Tracy: That's os cute. What was the name of the street you grew up on?
Paria Hassouri: I don't remember the first street, but I guess the first one I remember was Richfield in Pittsburgh.
Jennifer Tracy: So your pole dancer name, or your porn name, or whatever want to call it, is Snoopy Richfield.
Paria Hassouri: That could be intriguing, right?
Jennifer Tracy: I think she's kind of a baller.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: I can see her just throwing down some sick moves [crosstalk 00:47:42]. She may do some hip hop up there on the stage.
Paria Hassouri: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Paria, thank you so much.
Paria Hassouri: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: What a treasure. Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: Thanks so much for listening guys. I really hope you enjoyed my conversation with Paria. Join me next week for a fresh episode of MILF Podcast. And in the meantime, don't forget to head over to Clutch Gifts and use your exclusive MILF discount. 15% off with the code MILF 15. Until then, I love you. Keep going.