Erica Messer: I think when you have that burning desire to tell a story, that's your gut telling you, you have to, it's almost a fight or flight instinct, you have to write. Writers have to write, so whatever medium you choose, whether it's a book or a script or a film, if you want to shoot it, whatever you want to do, I think just tell your story and just remember you are the only one who has your story.
Jennifer Tracy: Hey guys, welcome back to the show. This is MILF podcast, the show where we talk about motherhood, entrepreneurship, sexuality and everything in between. I'm Jennifer Tracy, your host. Welcome. I hope everybody had, who celebrated Christmas had a great Christmas and I'm so excited to introduce today's guest and I have a little treat for you if you've been feeling as crazy around the holidays as I usually do, you might need this and if you're in the LA area, I'm so sorry the people that aren't in the LA area, but this beautiful company called Unplug is offering MILF listeners one free class. All you have to do is show up. They have two locations. They have one here on LaBrea and then they have one in the Valley in Studio City. If you show up before the end of January 2020 and just mention MILF podcast, you get a free class.
Jennifer Tracy: That's only if you've not been there before. If you're already going, then you're already zenned out. But if you want to try it, they have meditation classes, they have sound baths. I mean it's really beautiful. It's just like a place to go and like unplug as the name suggests. So anyway, I'm so thrilled to be partnering with them and I can't wait to go to my next one and I really want to go check out a sound bath there. I love a sound bath. Oh man, I really sound so LA right now, but I really do love it. It's just so relaxing. So there's that and then I want to just mention again, Hope Scarves is my highlighted give for this month. Hope Scarves is an organization that started because one woman was going through cancer treatment and she lost her hair and another woman gave her scarves.
Jennifer Tracy: And when she was done, she said, "Hey, do you want your scarves back?" And the lady said, "No, you need to pass those on to someone else who's going through treatment." The woman who then passed them on, Laura McGregor, who's a warrior goddess, and I just adore her, started this movement. And so now hope scarves.org is where you can find them, is this beautiful organization and they gift scarves. You can gift a scarf to somebody. You can anonymously gift a scarf, you can order them. You can also share your story, your story of cancer treatment, your story of being affected by cancer. Because our stories are really the most important thing. That's why do this because that's the most healing thing is to hear someone else share their story and know that you're not alone in yours. It's just, that's how I can get through my days, honestly.
Jennifer Tracy: So yeah, check that out. And what else? Just easy does it in this next week. I think there's a lot of pressure to, New Year's and what are you going to do for New Year's Eve? Which is funny because since I had my child, it was so great because I was like, "Oh literally nothing and being in bed by nine." I just don't, I haven't liked going out on New Year's for quite some time. A, cause I don't drink and it's crazy, B, because it's expensive and overcrowded and everybody gets pretty wasted most places and I just don't, not that that bothers me in any way that it makes me want to drink or anything, luckily, but it's just not my jam. I just don't want to be around a bunch of drunk people. I really like to be in bed early because I get up at five every morning.
Jennifer Tracy: But that's really not what I was getting at. What I was getting at is this pressure to start the new year off and make it great and 2020 is going to be it. The truth is yes, yes and we're starting a new decade and all these things, it's an election year. Oh my God. Don't even get me started. But it's also just another day. Every day that we wake up, we have a chance to start fresh and start over and every hour and every minute we can start over and change things that need to be changed and amend things that need to be amended. So, I don't know, I just, I kind of wanted to just say that, I hope you can give yourself a break and just know that you're doing fucking awesome. Whatever you're doing. So now I'm going to introduce Erica Messer.
Jennifer Tracy: I love Erica so much and I can't wait for you to listen to this interview. She's so bad ass and she's so humble and she's so fucking beautiful. It's ridiculous. I say it every time I see her, I'm like, you're so beautiful. I can't, I think we might've been lovers in another lifetime or something cause I get around her and I just feel like a teenage boy that doesn't know what to say. She's just so, and that's just one layer of how awesome she is. She's brilliant. She's incredibly hardworking. She's so dedicated to her family and her husband. Well, one and the same, but her kids and her husband. Yeah, she's bad ass. Bad ass. So enjoy my conversation with Erica Messer.
Jennifer Tracy: Hi Erica.
Erica Messer: Hi.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my God, I'm so excited you're here. I'm going to bring your microphone a little closer to you. So, okay, number one, I've had a crush on you from the moment I met you. Number two, you do not age. You don't. I'm like God, you have not aged a day since I met you.
Erica Messer: We met a long time ago. We met before-
Jennifer Tracy: Like 17 years ago.
Erica Messer: I was going to say before, kids.
Jennifer Tracy: Before you had kids.
Erica Messer: Yeah. Yeah. You're kind to say that.
Jennifer Tracy: It's real though.
Erica Messer: It's lighting or something.
Jennifer Tracy: No, it's genes. So I want to talk about your writing career, your illustrious writing career. I know you're going to be humble about it because that's who you are. You're, I'm just going to brag on her because she won't do it. You're one of the top writers in television, top showrunners, you have created, produced, written more television than most women in the history of television. It's just so impressive and you're just so talented. And I want to start, if you don't mind, from the beginning of that trajectory, I'm actually breathless talking about it because I'm so excited. Where'd you go to college? Did you always know you wanted to be a writer? Did you write as a kid? Let's start there.
Erica Messer: I grew up on the East coast and in Maine, no in Maryland.
Jennifer Tracy: Maryland.
Erica Messer: Like DC and Maryland. I love to tell stories and didn't really write necessarily until there was an assignment that in fourth grade, you have to write a book, a children's book. I remember loving this assignment and thinking about it and not understanding necessarily that you needed conflict to tell a good story, but almost recognizing it from all the reading I had done as a kid or hearing stories, there has to be conflict. Nobody really mentioned that when we had to write our book. I chose this place called Pickle Berry Place, but the King was a cucumber and so there's just inherent conflict in this story.
Jennifer Tracy: He didn't fit in.
Erica Messer: He didn't fit in, but he was their leader.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yeah.
Erica Messer: So it was a whole thing. I remember-
Jennifer Tracy: Do you still have that book.
Erica Messer: I bet it's at my parents' house. I bet you it is. I hope it is because it's probably with all the LPs, that's my guess. It's like in that closet with all the LPs.
Jennifer Tracy: The 80s stuff.
Erica Messer: I never really thought about it then, but when people have asked me since, what's the first thing you remember loving to write or whatever, it's Pickle Berry Place. It definitely was this little book. Then as schooling went on and term papers and all that stuff, I never had the anxiety that all my peers had about like, "Oh my God, I've got to write this thing, I have to do this." This was back in the day when you went to the library, when it wasn't a computer.
Jennifer Tracy: Right, laptops.
Erica Messer: Yeah, you were researching in a library. You were printing on a dot matrix printer. I sound ancient.
Jennifer Tracy: No, I'm right there with you.
Erica Messer: So it's like all of that didn't-
Jennifer Tracy: Microfiche.
Erica Messer: Microfiche, but that's awesome now, if you think about, I don't know, I want to tell a show where you have to use microfiche.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, yes.
Erica Messer: So none of it was stressing me out. I mean other than the normal, being stressed about being in school. Then once I got into college I, the first couple of years I didn't know what I was going to do.
Jennifer Tracy: Where'd you go to school?
Erica Messer: I went to Florida State.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay.
Erica Messer: And then Salisbury University, which is a really small liberal arts school in Maryland. The first, the Florida State year was very, I was just lost. It was such a big university and I loved being there. My older brother was there, I loved the sports of it all. I loved all that big school stuff. But when it came to the classes, you're taking your generals and you're in a class with 1,500 kids in bio. And I'm like, "Oh, this isn't really how I'm going to thrive." So I applied to the school that I swore I wouldn't apply to because it was kind of in the backyard of where I grew. And ended up finding my way there and really settling into communication arts, and then within that documentary films was my jam. It actually-
Jennifer Tracy: It was? I didn't know this.
Erica Messer: Yeah, it went from communication arts to film, television, radio, and then within that it was documentaries. So you could really find what you wanted to do.
Jennifer Tracy: That's awesome.
Erica Messer: And so for a minute you're, oh, maybe it's journalism. Nope. Maybe it's PR. Nope. Maybe it's the... Right. In a smaller university you have a chance to sort of discover-
Jennifer Tracy: Test things out.
Erica Messer: Yeah, test things out and kind of learn what you don't want to do, which helps you find what you do want to do. So then when I moved to Los Angeles, after I graduated, there was really no work in LA for documentary. All the work was in New York, because all the 2020, and Dateline, and 48 Hours, all those things were in New York, and when you really look at them, they're documentaries. Some of them are short, some of them are, right, but it's a doc. And I had a job offer for 48 Hours in New York, and I felt it was too close to home. It was a train ride away. I really thought, let's give LA a shot. So my boyfriend at the time, now my husband, and I-
Jennifer Tracy: You guys are high school sweethearts?
Erica Messer: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: I love this story. That's so sweet.
Erica Messer: So we moved out here.
Jennifer Tracy: And he was an actor comic at the time?
Erica Messer: Yes. And we had friends who lived in LA who were in the music industry back before that bubble really burst. And we just lived in this house on Stanley Avenue right behind the Starbucks.
Jennifer Tracy: I know exactly where that is, where all the fourplexes are and stuff.
Erica Messer: Yeah. But with so many people. I don't even know... I am not even sure [crosstalk 00:11:49].
Jennifer Tracy: That's what you do when you move, you have to.
Erica Messer: You have to.
Jennifer Tracy: And your rent was still $1,000 just for the two of you, for your portion of the rent or something crazy, yeah.
Erica Messer: Something crazy. And all those people now, half of them are still in LA, half have moved on. But anytime I'm in that part of town, I drive by and just, I'm back there in a second, because you just remember what it was like when you were starting out and the city was new, and the routes were new. And to learn LA from that area was great, because then I knew my directions.
Jennifer Tracy: And you had the Thomas guide.
Erica Messer: And we had a Thomas guide.
Jennifer Tracy: For those of you not in LA, a Thomas guide was, now we don't need them anymore, but it was a book, because LA is so spread out, that was a map. It was pages and pages and pages of maps and you had to go to the back and get the key and look at the... I mean it was crazy.
Erica Messer: Yeah. When you think about it now or when you try to explain it, it just sounds so antiquated, and so, what are you talking about, but it was a lifesaver.
Jennifer Tracy: And you had to have it.
Erica Messer: You had to have it.
Jennifer Tracy: Have it in your car.
Erica Messer: And then they put it out every year, but you could never really afford to spend 50 bucks for the Thomas guide, so you'd get the old one or whatever. But the Thomas guide, I don't remember what we were, F7.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, I was going to say F7, because I lived still right near there.
Erica Messer: Yeah. So when I moved here, I kind of made a deal that I didn't want to do something I could have done back in Maryland. And back in Maryland I was waiting tables, bartending, I was a licensed manicurist in the state of Maryland until-
Jennifer Tracy: Stop it right now. You were?
Erica Messer: Oh yeah. Up until, okay, my dad passed in 2004 and he was the one who would always get the renewal thing, and he'd be like, hey peanut, you want to renew your license? I'm like, yes, yes.
Jennifer Tracy: Just in case.
Erica Messer: Just in case.
Jennifer Tracy: Until 2004? You're already producing shows and you're, just in case, I need to keep that. Isn't that such... But that's the life of a writer and an artist. You're always, whoa, this could all go away at any moment. Do you still feel that way today?
Erica Messer: Totally. Yeah. I don't think it goes away. I don't know, maybe-
Jennifer Tracy: I mean, I have friends who've had seven New York Times bestsellers, they're wildly successful authors, and they're, oh no, my next book is going to tank and people are going to find out I suck and I will never work again. And I'm, what?
Erica Messer: It's the imposter syndrome.
Jennifer Tracy: Imposter syndrome.
Erica Messer: And I'm convinced, I've not written a book, but I'm convinced every script will be the one that's, oh-
Jennifer Tracy: They find you out. So okay, so you said you didn't want to do what you could've done in New York. So what was offered at the time, and how old were you, 23?
Erica Messer: 23, yup. And I just sort of made that deal with myself. I don't even think I said it to anyone else. Just, okay, don't go work at The Gap. Don't go work at a restaurant. You could have done that there. Get yourself in and around the people you want to be in and around. So I had a friend who had lived here for a few years, he knew of a temp agency, and back in the day the temp agencies were so sought after that you had to be recommended.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, it was a whole thing.
Erica Messer: It was a whole thing.
Jennifer Tracy: It was very hard to get work as a temp.
Erica Messer: And so my friend said call this temp agency, there's a whole story there where I went to the temp agency, which is on Wilshire and La Cienega, for all the LA people, on the corner of Wilshire and La Cienega. So here I go, I kind of know where I am, and I go into this big building and I'm like, I'm looking for this temp agency, and the gentleman at the door is really lovely, but he's like, honey, I think you're in the wrong building. I was in the Flint Publication building. And I think he just saw this wholesome girl walking in and was, yeah, no. So it was across the street. It was still Wilshire and La Cienega, it was just the other side of the street. Anyway.
Erica Messer: And then it took weeks to get an interview with them. Then I was on their list, deep on their list. So I think I didn't get work until August and I moved here in June. So even though I was trying to get my ducks in a row, it just took a while for it all to happen. And then once I did the agency had a contract with Fox, so all of the work was happening on the Fox lot. And with the studio network didn't matter, you just went where you were needed.
Erica Messer: And my first long-term gig there was in the casting department at the network and everyone was so nice, just the nicest group of people. And the other assistants were nice. And then I just started returning to sort of that third floor of building 88 on the Fox lot, and all the other assistants just kind of took me in and they're, here's the job list, here's the opportunities with the company, you should apply, and think about this one, not that one. They knew who the nice people were to work for and all that, and I applied for a job with a guy who had just been promoted to vice president of drama series, his name is Jeff Ackerly, and he was super nice and from Wisconsin, sort of a small town Midwest guy.
Erica Messer: And I started working for him in September of 1996, and got to see what it was to be a network exec. I saw every script that came in, every cut that came in, sat in on notes calls, and that year that I did that was so valuable to me now, because a huge part of your job as a writer is dealing with executives and their thoughts, and I just always looked at them as the freshest eyes on a project.
Jennifer Tracy: The executives?
Erica Messer: Yeah, and some people who haven't had maybe the experience working at the network, don't look at it that way.
Jennifer Tracy: They think they're the enemy. I mean that's been my ... What I've heard, I've not worked in that area, but they are scared of it.
Erica Messer: Yeah. But it's not that, if you look at it from their perspective, which I had the ability to do because I had been in that world. Even as an assistant, as a fly on the wall, you're still seeing what is going into it.
Jennifer Tracy: And at that time were you reading all the scripts that were coming in? So you were just reading scripts every night?
Erica Messer: Reading scripts every night. And I was writing specs at the time.
Jennifer Tracy: Just for yourself?
Erica Messer: Just for myself, because I didn't have Movie Magic, I did it in Word or whatever. So you're doing your own [crosstalk 00:18:26].
Jennifer Tracy: What's Movie Magic? Is that the new Final draft.
Erica Messer: Movie Magic was pre Final Draft.
Jennifer Tracy: Pre Final Draft, okay, right.
Erica Messer: I think it's still around for budgeting and all that kind of stuff, but I think most people are using Final Draft. It was pre all of that, and I quickly knew, yeah, I don't want to be giving notes on this stuff, I want to be giving you the content.
Jennifer Tracy: How old were you at that point? 24?
Erica Messer: Yeah. And so I-
Jennifer Tracy: And I just want to pause for a second and recognize that, for our listeners and viewers, yes you were a temp at Fox and yes you, like you said, everyone was really nice and then they gave you the sheet and you got this job with Jeff, and that speaks not only to great fortune, yes, right place, right time, but your work ethic.
Jennifer Tracy: And I know you personally, so I know that you showed up early, you helped as much as possible, you were always ready to work, and you were always pleasant. And that's so important. Even if you're not doing the job that you were like, I'm meant to be a writer, which you weren't necessarily sure of yet, but the way that you showed up for each step of the way, for the temp job, for the next job, that speaks to getting the next level up and opportunities. And it's so important. And I'm sure you see that now with kids that work under you, the young kids that are coming in?
Erica Messer: Yeah. When you recognize that work ethic, you just want to hold onto it, because it's invaluable, and also you know that you're of like mind, so you're going to really be able to mentor that person because they are willing to learn and and all that. So yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, yeah. So just a [crosstalk 00:20:05].
Erica Messer: No, so it-
Jennifer Tracy: So you started writing specs?
Erica Messer: Yeah, I start writing specs. So it was at the time, it was like the heyday of Fox drama. 90210 and Melrose were sort of well-established at that point, X-Files even. But it was Ally McBeal.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh yeah, Ally McBeal, that was such a great show.
Erica Messer: It was such a great show. Party of Five. Even New York Undercover, there were a lot of amazing dramas and I knew all of the assistants because their bosses would call my boss and so we would say, "Hey, it's me. Jeff's calling for your boss." And I ended up becoming friendly with quite a few of the assistants.
Erica Messer: My girlfriend needed, she was in grad school in San Diego and she needed a Sony camera, which was going to cost her a boatload of money. And I knew that the Party of Five people could get discounts at the Sony store. So I arrange this thing to help my friend get a camera, my grad student friend, and went over and met finally face-to-face, Deb Fisher, who I'd been talking to all the time and she worked for the exec producers of Party of Five and I worked for the network equivalent. And so we finally met. We're getting my friend Cindy this camera. Later Deb and Cindy know one another, which is funny.
Erica Messer: And then I say like, "Hey, is there anything ever open in the writer's room as an assistant or anywhere on the... I'd even go to editing because I did editing on my own projects when I was in college though. Anything, anything." And she said, "Maybe something could open up, but right now we're staffed," and when I figure like when I was asking for this, it was in the summer and the show had already been... Writers had been back since June. And anyway, then come October, Deb said, "Hey, I think there's going to be an opening.
Erica Messer: One of the writers is leaving to do a pilot and he's taking the assistant." And I was like, "Great." And so I went over and I met the writers and got hired and that was I think in the fourth season of Party of Five. And I did that for the remainder of that year. And then Chris Keyser and Amy Lippman were each allowed an assistant at that point with whatever deal they made. So I became another assistant at their desk, working right with Deb. Deb was writing, she was doing features, her own thing. I was doing my own specs. And then-
Jennifer Tracy: How many specs were you writing? Just-
Erica Messer: Oh gosh. I don't even know. I feel like I wrote one for probably every drama on Fox. I definitely wrote Ally McBeal, Party of Five.
Jennifer Tracy: And were you directed to write those by a mentor or were you just like, "I'm just going to write these so that I have them in my back pocket?"
Erica Messer: Yeah, I just wanted to write them.
Jennifer Tracy: That's so smart.
Erica Messer: I just was like, these are the tools in front of me. I'm able to read these drafts. I'm able to see how they were crafted from the story pitch on the network call, to a draft that's in front of you. And I'm like, "Oh, this is how they brought this to life. Let me see what would be my idea?" And then you just kind of go and do it. And so it wasn't until later, during Party of Five when Chris Kaiser said, he was a great mentor, and he said, "Why don't you take this outline? This Party of Five outline and write this one storyline and then I'll give you notes on it." And I was like, "Okay."
Jennifer Tracy: Wow, big step.
Erica Messer: And it was big step and it's truly just practice to get his thoughts. But it was such a gift to sit down with a showrunner and hear, on his own show. I mean all of it was like intimidating and all the things that should be to make you feel that-
Jennifer Tracy: Nervousness.
Erica Messer: ... nervous and all that stuff. And then Deborah Cincotta, who you just met, worked for Chris and Amy as their development exec. And she said to Deb Fisher and I, "You guys should team up and be writing partners. You work for Chris and Amy who are writing partners. Why don't you guys do the same thing?" And so we did and wrote a couple specs together. Those specs then got sent around town via Deb Cincotta and we got an agent and then met everyone in town because the agents do that. They get to set you up on all your meetings.
Erica Messer: And then our first showrunner meeting was with JJ Abrams for Alias. And we went and did that meeting and it turned into our first job and then it was Alias for two years, the OC, Charmed for a year. And then Criminal Minds. Deb and I wrote on that together for four years before she moved on. And then I stayed for another 12 years-
Jennifer Tracy: A zillion years.
Erica Messer: ... 11 years, something like that. Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: So you were a writer on Criminal Minds, but then you graduated up to the top.
Erica Messer: Yeah. So when Deb and I started on that show, we were co-producer level. We had been co-producer level I think, on Charmed maybe the year before, but it was one of those new shows, Criminal Minds was a new show. They only have this much left in the budget by the time we got hired.
Erica Messer: And so we were like, "We'll do it, it's fine. Let's give this a go." Yeah, so we were co-producer writers. Then by the time Deb left, we were co-exec producers. And then by season five on the show, a lot of writers left after season four and we went from a healthy room of 12 bodies to six, but we still had 24 episodes to do, so it was insane. So season five and six were really intense. But by season six, I was co-running the show as an exec producer.
Jennifer Tracy: And you were a new mom at the time? How old were the kids?
Erica Messer: The kids were, in season five and six, they were six and four.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, I mean, what was that like?
Erica Messer: Crazy.
Jennifer Tracy: You have an amazing partner. The two of you work great together, so thank God for that. But-
Erica Messer: No, he's the key to all of this, honestly. It was just, he would tell you that at a certain point we played rock, paper, income. That's how he looked at it and I was clearly-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, Kenny.
Erica Messer: ... the one that was going to stay working.
Jennifer Tracy: Rock, paper, income, that's great.
Erica Messer: Rock, paper, income. Because we moved so far away from home, we didn't have family in our background to help.
Jennifer Tracy: No grandparents?
Erica Messer: No grandparents. None of that kind of help. And we both felt really strongly that it was important to have one of us present for the kids, in all those early years and everything. So there were some crazy... In the first couple of years of my son's life, we were juggling. Kenny would still have shows to go do, whether they were improv or standup or whatever. And I'd come home, we'd high five and he'd leave. And then it just got to the point once our daughter was born, he said, "I just don't think it's going to be worth it anymore because I can't. The morning comes so early and if I'm on stage until 1:00 or 2:00-
Jennifer Tracy: Brutal.
Erica Messer: ... in the morning, I can't function. I can't be my best self." So that sort of is when that ended for him. And I feel bad about that because as you know, he's such a funny person.
Jennifer Tracy: He's so talented.
Erica Messer: And I feel like his funny gets wasted just on our living room. Like he needs an audience. So I've always felt that way. I really wonder.
Jennifer Tracy: Remember when he came, when you guys came to Sabrina's party last... Gosh, was that two years ago? It was almost two years ago now. A year and a half. And I kept saying to Sabrina after that, I was like, "It's so good to see Erica and Kenny." And I forgot how funny Kenny is. He's just so... it's so subtle and you're just like... he's so good.
Erica Messer: He's really funny. He's so funny. He's so funny, you guys. So anyway, that's been our journey. And then Criminal Minds has been this gift, 15 seasons and in LA.
Jennifer Tracy: That's amazing.
Erica Messer: And I've had a hell of a commute, but it hasn't been-
Jennifer Tracy: [crosstalk 00:28:40] I want to brag on you. So yes, that is a commute. Because it's in Glendale.
Erica Messer: Yeah, but it's LA.
Jennifer Tracy: It's LA. It is what it is, you're commuting no matter what it is. But just to brag on you, because I know you won't do it, but so you moved your way up and you became the showrunner for Criminal Minds.
Erica Messer: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Did you say that already? I missed it.
Erica Messer: Yeah. So in season six, I was co-running it.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that's right. You did say that, okay.
Erica Messer: Ed Bernero was helping on the first spinoff of the show called Suspect Behavior. And then Simon Mirren and I ran it as co-showrunners when Ed stepped away. That was season six. And then in season seven, both Ed and Simon moved on and I was the last remaining writer. And I think nobody really knew what the special sauce was except for the ones who had been there from the beginning. And bringing in someone new is something that was very typical of the network at the time. And I was so thankful that Nina Tassler saw the ability and strength.
Jennifer Tracy: Nina is, I'm sorry, the show creator?
Erica Messer: Nina Tassler used to run CBS. She was the head of CBS Entertainment. So she was our network boss and she had sort of seen what the show had gone through over the years and my role in the show in the last couple of years and with Ed's blessing of saying, "You can leave this in Erica's hands." They did. And I felt like this show has always been sort of that middle child. It's literally, I have a kid in 04', that show in 05', and a kid in 06'. So it has been the middle child for our family, and I've always felt such a protection over it that the show, the characters, the crew, the cast, all of it, because I was there from the beginning, and I just always wanted the best for it. And so staying there was kind of a no-brainer, and the fact that it went on and on and on and on, every year just felt like a bonus for us. So we were like, "Well here we go. Now it's season seven, now it's season eight." All away to, when we air the final 10, it'll be season 15.
Jennifer Tracy: So incredible. And people just love this show. They love this show so much. It's so resonant. So I want to speak to the fact that you are a woman, and it's tough out there for female writers in general, and I've shared this before, I think in the symposium, but I also talk about it on my show, how the reason that I actually am writing and revising my novel now is that my friend Annie Jacobson, who is also my mentor, who's a nonfiction writer, very successful, who started as a journalist, I came to her, I was 38 years old, no TV writing agent, I'd never sold a script, and I said, "I have this idea for a TV pilot, but I don't know.
Jennifer Tracy: It could be another format." And she looked at me, dead in the eye, I'll never forget it. It was like one of those lightning bolt moments where this person that you respect so much, she said, "Write the book. Write the book, because you have never sold a script in Hollywood, and you're a woman, and you're 38, they will eat you alive." She said, "If you write the book, you will own the manuscript, and you'll have more control over it."
Jennifer Tracy: And so I set about this monumental task of writing a book. And I also share this other story. Another woman I've had on the show is my friend Claudia Lano. I don't know if you know her, she does comedies, she's also a showrunner, show creator, prolific writer, just like you. And I met her when I was 23, and I was like, "I'm an actress." And I was like, "But I write too." I didn't talk like that. I just am making fun of myself. And she said, "Get a job as an assistant on a show.
Jennifer Tracy: Get a job as a writer's assistant on a show." And I didn't listen. And I remember when I met you, when I fell in love with you, and I was like, "Oh, that's so cool, and she does this, and blah, blah, blah." And I was still, I was acting and pursuing acting, and I just watched your career go like this. I was like, "That's what Claudia was talking about." Not that that would have been my trajectory either, but I'm just saying it's hard to be a woman. I mean, do you have anything to speak to that?
Erica Messer: I think it is hard. Just, it's sort of like period, end of sentence. But I also think it is all those other things that stand you apart, whether you're a man or a woman, right? It is the work ethic. It's the, you want to be around this person, because they're not cruel or all these other things that can happen in this business. We have to be so vulnerable as actors, as writers, as directors even, you're putting your art into the world. You're so vulnerable in that. And when there's people who just want to cut you down, it makes you go quiet. It makes you do all this other stuff where you're then not shining. And so I've been in plenty of rooms where you weren't encouraged to talk, you weren't encouraged to shine.
Erica Messer: And I knew that when ever I had the chance to have a room, that I wanted everybody to know they were safe, and that this job is hard enough as it is. We don't need to be hurting anyone purposely or I think there's a lot of people who are just like naturally think it's them or me, and I've got to knock them down for myself to succeed. That's not how it is. But I know that's how a lot of people were raised, or it's how they feel you have to be in the workspace. And you don't, you don't. But then I think it takes people to make those changes along the way.
Jennifer Tracy: Leaders.
Erica Messer: Yeah. And then, my job is to do that, but also to help the next person up and say, "Okay, and now you're going to help the next person, right?" And it's sort of that deal that you make with your replacement.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: And like they're not your replacement yet, but they will be. And when they are, you need to know that they're going to keep doing the same thing.
Jennifer Tracy: It's like raising kids.
Erica Messer: It is. Yeah, yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: You want them to go out and be kind and have integrity. Yeah. I love that perspective. That's so generous. It makes sense.
Erica Messer: Good.
Jennifer Tracy: So tell me what you're doing now.
Erica Messer: So now I have a company that's through Disney, and Deb Cincotta, who I knew back in the day with Chris Naimi is the president of development. And we have projects. We have two for ABC Network. One I'm writing, and when I'm godmothering, which is another big thing that I'm encouraging people to do, who have a skillset.
Jennifer Tracy: What does that mean? It sounds amazing.
Erica Messer: It's helping writers who have never run a show themselves, but they're great writers, and they have great ideas. And just saying, "I'll be there beside you and when your show gets picked up, I'll help you run it. I'll help you figure out the budget, and I'll help you hire the directors, and go through casting sessions." And all of those little things that need to happen that can feel overwhelming initially, but once you do it, then you've got that skillset. It's riding a bike really. But it can feel really overwhelming, because in addition to all of those things that need to happen, you need to keep the story moving forward, and the writer's room going, and all of that. So there's opportunities to help these other writers. And I want to, when I meet people that I connect with on that level, and I like the ideas that they have, I'm like, "Hey, I'll partner up with you." So I have one of those in development for ABC Network, and it's a passion project for the guys.
Erica Messer: It's Matt Partney and Corey Abbott, who have had success in selling pilots, but nothing's gone on air yet. And it's a story of Matt's family that they come from a family of nurses, and everybody works in the same hospital. And you go back in time to 1964 when the matriarch of the family really founded like the accident room, which was the precursor to the emergency room, and she's the hero at work. But as we see present day, she's not a hero at home. And it's like she sacrificed so much for so long and there's kids who are okay with it, and kids who aren't. And it's just a complicated, messy family drama. So that one's a lot of fun. And then I'm writing one about a mother and daughter who discover that they are both working for an intelligence agency. The mom has retired, and the daughter got tapped to be in it. And the mom figures that out and then she rejoins.
Jennifer Tracy: Fun.
Erica Messer: It's really fun.
Jennifer Tracy: You're like tapping back into your Alias roots.
Erica Messer: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have a whole, family that I always say they're the heroes and I just write about the heroes, because my brother is a police officer and I have family in the different intelligence agencies and all of that. So this is tapping into and sort of honoring the sacrifices they've all made.
Jennifer Tracy: I love that. Wow. So you just, you're just not stopping anytime soon.
Erica Messer: Yeah, I don't want to stop. There's a documentary called The Heart of Nuba that Ken Carlson directed. And it's about his friend Tom Catena, who is the only doctor in the Nuba Mountains in Sudan. So it's the story of this remarkable man, and all the people he works with and treats. And so I've adapted that doc into a limited series. So that's in the works.
Jennifer Tracy: That's amazing. Oh my God, I can't wait for that.
Erica Messer: Yeah. And then a couple others that I probably can't talk about yet, but they're all, deals are being done for those. And then I produced my first feature called The Biggest Little Farm.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my gosh. Yes. Talk about The Biggest Little Farm. I want to hear about this. I want our listeners to hear about this.
Erica Messer: So John Chester is the filmmaker, he's extraordinary human being, and storyteller. And I happened to grow up with him. So when he and his wife Molly bought this farm out in Moorepark in 2011, John sort of put away all of his cameras and focused on being a farmer. And every time we would go out there, I'd say, "You're filming this though, right? Like you're filming how this pasture just changed, and you're documenting it, right?" And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And then eventually he saw the changes, and that, initially it's, yeah, there's, look at this, the land's coming alive again, and then something bad would happen. And then he'd feel like they failed, and then they'd come back up, and things would be okay.
Erica Messer: And it wasn't until he could sort of stand back after seven years of this and say, "There's a story to tell here." And thankfully he did, because it's such a beautiful story. So he and I worked on the story with a bunch of other amazing people, and we ended up selling the show or selling the film in Toronto last year to Neon, and Neon had it in the theaters in May, and it really ran nationwide all summer, and now it's available on iTunes and Amazon, and eventually soon Hulu. In November, I think it will be on Hulu.
Jennifer Tracy: Amazing.
Erica Messer: And so it was kind of getting a second wind, because people are able to watch it in their own living rooms now.
Jennifer Tracy: Yup. Yeah.
Erica Messer: So it's a beautiful, beautiful story and so hopeful, so inspirational. It's the kind of storytelling I think we all need right now. And people are able to really connect, even though they aren't farmers. You can look at this and see what the challenges are and relate. And there's a big, big challenge with some coyotes on the farm that are eating some chickens, spoiler alert. But John is able to sort of look at that as an opportunity for a relationship, like how is this coyote helpful in my life? Not just how is he hurtful. And then after people watch the film, they're like, "I've got a coyote."
Jennifer Tracy: Of course, I'm like, that's such a metaphor, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
Erica Messer: Right? Yeah?
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, it's so great.
Erica Messer: Like, "I've got a coyote and I'm trying to figure out how to work with them instead of against them." And it's just, it's that kind of thing that I think is universal, but we're doing it in this way that's sort of distracting, because it's this beautiful journey of a couple wanting to make a difference in the world and live in harmony with nature.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: You know, easier said than done.
Jennifer Tracy: No kidding. Well, and it's so grounding and refreshing to hear and watch a story like that, because, I mean, my son who's 10, we live right in the middle of West Hollywood, we always have, I've lived in the same house for 20 years, and he will proclaim openly, "I don't like the city, Mom. I don't want to live in the city anymore. I want to live where there's wide open spaces." He just, he really doesn't like... he has some sensory issues and he has ADHD and so forth, but he just, it's too much for him. It's just all too much.
Jennifer Tracy: And he just, we go... My parents live off the 101 up up, and it's just quiet. And there's kids in the neighborhood. He can literally get on his bike and it's just that kind of world. And I'm also obsessed with farming. Like I have a dream of one day owning a farm and having the wind things and being off the grid and having chickens and goats and it's just so, I don't know, to feel grounded and with the earth like that. I've just, I've never experienced that. I'm such a city kid.
Erica Messer: Right. Right, yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: I love that. I can't wait to watch it.
Erica Messer: I know. I'm excited for you to see it. It's really, it's really magical.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my gosh.
Erica Messer: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: So, is there any advice that you would give to someone who is maybe starting out their writing career, regardless of their age or gender or where they live? Just someone who's kind of having trouble making that first step into, "I have this thing, it's burning inside me, but I want to write it, but I don't know." And just that, do you have any advice for somebody like that?
Erica Messer: I think when you have that burning desire to tell a story, that's your gut telling you, you have to. It's almost a fight or flight instinct. You have to write. Writers have to write. So, whatever medium you choose, whether it's a book or a script or a film, if you want to shoot it, whatever you want to do, I think just tell your story. And just remember, you are the only one who has your story.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: And sometimes it starts with you even doing a self-analysis. Why do I want to tell this story so badly? What is it about this? And sometimes that can sort of quiet the voices in your head, or you really can analyze it better.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: But I think it's when you have that desire and it's so strong, you have to listen to it, because you'll regret it if you don't.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, that's the thing. Right? And then the years go by, I found this with stories I've started and then shoved away, I'm so guilty of this, and it's part of why I teach people. It's like, just do it. Just even if it's using your voice memo on your phone and just getting it out of your body, getting it out of your head.
Erica Messer: Yes. Yep.
Jennifer Tracy: That I'll think of something I was going to write 20 years ago. I'm like, "Oh, why didn't I finish that?" You know what I mean?
Erica Messer: Yep.
Jennifer Tracy: And it is regret. I have dev regret, because I don't have a grasp on that story anymore, and it's not what's coming up now.
Erica Messer: Right.
Jennifer Tracy: It's like, you've got to get it out onto the page or whatever it is.
Erica Messer: Yeah. I'm always surprised when I go back and read something that I had written. I'm like, "Oh, I'm glad I told that then, because that story's not even in my head anymore."
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: So different. Everything changes. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.
Erica Messer: You're welcome.
Jennifer Tracy: You're amazing.
Erica Messer: Oh, you're so amazing.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God, I could just talk to you forever.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. Som I'm just going to ask you three questions that I ask every guest.
Erica Messer: Okay.
Jennifer Tracy: And then a fun lightning round of questions.
Erica Messer: Okay.
Jennifer Tracy: What do you think about Erica when you hear the word love?
Erica Messer: I think family.
Jennifer Tracy: If you could live anywhere in the world other than where you're living now, where would you live?
Erica Messer: Oh, wow. I think it's a toss-up. I think I'd go move onto Apricot Lane Farms with John and Molly, because it's so beautiful.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: Or go try to find my own Apricot Lane Farms. Or Italy.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Any particular part?
Erica Messer: No, we just went for the first time last Christmas, and I just felt better there. I ate better. I felt better. I walked all the time. It was just-
Jennifer Tracy: You are the third person in the last week that has said those exact words. They said, "Oh, I just"... I interviewed another one. It was Jenna Elfman who was on the show.
Erica Messer: Oh, yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: She went with her family and she said, "It's just, they know how to do it."
Erica Messer: They do.
Jennifer Tracy: She's like, "Everything is just so like, oh, come, come. Everyone's so relaxed. They're enjoying it."
Erica Messer: They enjoy life.
Jennifer Tracy: We don't enjoy it that way.
Erica Messer: I know. It was very, that's a good way to put it. They just, they enjoy it. They enjoy life. It's like, no hurry for anything. You walk everywhere.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, I love that. I miss walking.
Erica Messer: I know.
Jennifer Tracy: I really miss walking, actually.
Erica Messer: I know.
Jennifer Tracy: I love my car, but yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: How do you define serenity?
Erica Messer: Oh, that's a good question. How do I define it? Just finding stillness, being present. Quiet.
Jennifer Tracy: Quiet. Yeah. When we can grab it.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, lightning round of questions. Fireside or oceanside?
Erica Messer: Oceanside with a fire?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. Good answer. Good answer. Good answer.
Jennifer Tracy: Favorite junk food?
Erica Messer: Potato chips, I think.
Jennifer Tracy: Any particular kind?
Erica Messer: No. No, I'm not like... not. It used to be salt and vinegar, but any-
Jennifer Tracy: Whatever, whatever they've got, it's prop service.
Erica Messer: There's an Utz brand... or no, no, Herr's back east, that makes this Old Bay chip.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Erica Messer: Yeah, I would say if there's-
Jennifer Tracy: They did a show about it on The Office.
Erica Messer: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: They did an episode.
Erica Messer: Yes, oh my gosh, you're right.
Jennifer Tracy: And Jim's trying to get it for Karen.
Erica Messer: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: Because you can only get it back there.
Erica Messer: You can only get it there. Yeah, Herr's of Pennsylvania makes it. Those would be if I could only have one chip for the rest of my life. Crab chips.
Jennifer Tracy: I love it. Do you like theme parks?
Erica Messer: I like going because the kids and all that. But, no. And part of it was from ... when I was a kid, maybe yes. But I'm not a roller coaster person-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, me neither.
Erica Messer: And if it's super crowded, not a fan. And since I've worked on Criminal Minds, all I see are the creeps.
Jennifer Tracy: Right? I bet you do.
Erica Messer: It's almost weird. It's almost like things go sepia tone and then the people that are there without children stand out to me.
Jennifer Tracy: That's one question I didn't ask you, and I want to ask it now, because I think we've had a conversation about this over the years. Working on a show like Criminal Minds is intense, because you're, I would assume, researching all these psychopaths and getting statistics and real numbers, and how has that affected your own psychology, your own mental well-being?
Erica Messer: In the first couple of years of the show, it was really, it was really disturbing, because I had never even written on a procedural before, let alone something about serial killers. And a lot of the writers had not either. I mean, they had all written character and procedural, but it was learning about serial killers is a very specific research.
Erica Messer: And in the first couple of seasons, it was very upsetting. I didn't have a wall built up. And then probably by the fourth, fifth, sixth year, it was almost like being in grad school or something where you're, it's textbook and you're reading and you're like, "Oh, well this thing here kind of reminds me of this person over here." And then you're just fascinated in the behavior of it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: So I stopped being as paranoid. I think paranoia was hitting, and also the kids were so much younger.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: You just want to protect them and make the world safe. And then you're reading this stuff that's saying the world is not safe.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: So it was that sort of overcoming the idea that you don't have control over that.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: You might think you do, and you control what you can, but the bad people in the world are out there.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: And all you can hope is that the good people are going to find them. And that's really the heart of Criminal Minds. For me, it was always about the heroes. I feel like it's lasted 15 seasons because people want to cheer on the good guys every week. They want to be scared sure, but they're watching to see those relationships with the heroes.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. And how those heroes deal in their day to day life that's so fascinating. I mean, that's always my favorite part. It's like, "Oh, how are they going to get through that in their personal life while they're juggling this other thing?" So, it's so beautifully done. So daytime sex or nighttime sex?
Erica Messer: Nighttime.
Jennifer Tracy: You didn't want to answer that. She was like, "I don't want to talk about that." Shower or bath tub?
Erica Messer: Shower.
Jennifer Tracy: You don't have time for bath.
Erica Messer: I rarely take them. I harken back to being a kid growing up with my older brother and my little brother. We shared a bathroom and I'd be like, "I am not going to soak in a tub where your feet have been. No thanks."
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Gross.
Erica Messer: So, it just never was a relaxing option for me, but everybody says they're so amazing and when I do it, I'm usually like worn out sick. It's extreme when I actually take 20 minutes to take a bath. But they're so lovely when you do it. I'm like, "Oh I need to do this more often." And then a year goes by.
Jennifer Tracy: Well, now you have a great invitation to do it because you have a lovely new bathtub. I guess same. I love baths. In the winter, I'm air quoting winter because we're in LA, but I take them much more frequently in the winter. But my kid either has to be at his dad's or ... well, he just has to be out of the house because otherwise he'll just come in every three minutes and I can't actually relax.
Erica Messer: No, no. Right.
Jennifer Tracy: On a scale of one to 10, how good are you at making lasagna?
Erica Messer: Seven.
Jennifer Tracy: Really? Oh yeah, that's hot.
Erica Messer: I really like to bake, not cook and lasagna is baking to me. It's one of the only things that I could actually say a seven about when it comes to cooking because it's more baking than it is cooking.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. What things do you bake?
Erica Messer: Anything.
Jennifer Tracy: Really?
Erica Messer: Cookies, cakes, cupcakes, pies.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, do you do that with your kids?
Erica Messer: Yeah. My daughter loves to do it and my son too. When he was little, he used to love to make muffins with me. It was rare that we would store buy any sweets. We would make them and I still stand by that because there's no preservatives when you make it yourself.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, and they're just so much more delicious.
Erica Messer: They're so much better.
Jennifer Tracy: Right out of the oven, they're still warm. Oh, there's nothing better.
Erica Messer: There's things I can't make because I will finish all of it and it's really just brownies. I will eat brownies until they're gone. It's a problem and I will not feel well, but then-
Jennifer Tracy: You can't stop.
Erica Messer: If I do it again and I'm like, "Well, this time I definitely won't eat the whole pan because I got so sick last time." And then it happens again.
Erica Messer: Brownies are dangerous in my house.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, yes. Oh, I'm going to come over the next time you make brownies.
Erica Messer: Okay.
Jennifer Tracy: What's your biggest pet peeve?
Erica Messer: Oh gosh. Wow. I don't even know. That's crazy.
Jennifer Tracy: Maybe you don't have one.
Erica Messer: I don't think I have one.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that's great.
Erica Messer: I don't think I have one.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow. I envy that. It's funny, now that I'm thinking of it, I don't think I have one pet peeve. I think, for me, it's when people don't take responsibility when they make a mistake and when they try to pass it off. That's a big pet peeve of mine. And it recently happened to me this week where I was like... and I had to confront the person and they still lied about it and I was like, "Oh yeah, no, I actually have proof, like in an email." You know? But yeah.
Erica Messer: Yeah. Well, I guess if you look at something like that, that would be a pet peeve. Also, we were lucky enough to go to Japan this summer and there's such a stunning culture and the fact that manners really matter there was refreshing and you didn't realize, but in public, nobody's talking on their phone. They might be texting or whatever, but even if you're on a train, you're not hearing somebody else's conversation.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow.
Erica Messer: You're not at Target trying to buy a birthday card and you're hearing somebody else's conversation because they're on their cell phone. So, that I think is a pet peeve where I'm kind of... I wouldn't do that and so when other people are doing it, it just annoys me because I wouldn't do that.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: That kind of thing?
Jennifer Tracy: Totally. Yeah. I share that same pet peeve with you. I don't like that either. Superpower choice. Invisibility, ability to fly, or super strength?
Erica Messer: Can I add one?
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Erica Messer: Traveling at the speed of light.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh yes.
Erica Messer: So that I don't have that commute.
Jennifer Tracy: Teleporting.
Erica Messer: Teleporting.
Jennifer Tracy: Then you could go to Italy all the time. You could go just for dinner. But you'd need to have it so that you could teleport your kids and your husband too.
Erica Messer: Yeah. It would be like a circle. You'd have to all hold hands and then we could all go.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. You're writing the script. I can see it. It's happening. The family that teleports. Oh my god, that sounds so amazing. Would you rather have a cat tail or cat ears?
Erica Messer: Ears, right? Because then you'd just be like, "Scratch it. Scratch it."
Jennifer Tracy: What was the name of your first pet?
Erica Messer: There's two. One was a pet that we kind of adopted from my uncle. She was a fancy lhasa apso named Shalimar.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, stop it.
Erica Messer: I know. And then another dog came our way. He was lost on the side of the road, never found his owners. And he was a white lhasa mix. This was years after Shalimar had died. And he was a little scruffier and he got named by my brothers MacGyver, after the TV show. So, we go from Shalimar, fancy Shalimar to MacGyver.
Jennifer Tracy: That's such a great story. And what was the name of the street you grew up on?
Erica Messer: Well, there's a couple, because there's DC and then there's here, so Hillcrest Drive or Morning Mist Drive.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. We're going to go with morning mist, since you gave me a choice. And we're going to combine the pet names. So, we have Shalimar MacGyver Morning Mist. That is your porn name.
Erica Messer: It's a good one. It's a good one. You don't know what's coming.
Jennifer Tracy: It's a sexy detective, but also there's some action adventure in it and then there's a little bit of meditation at the end.
Erica Messer: Exactly.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh my god, Erica. I love you so much.
Erica Messer: I love you too.
Jennifer Tracy: Thank you so much for doing this.
Erica Messer: You are so welcome. This was fun.
Jennifer Tracy: Thanks so much for listening guys. I really hope you enjoyed my conversation with Erica. Join me next week where I have a special bonus... I almost was going to say where I have a special boner, but I won't have a special boner. I have a special bonus episode. I told you Erica makes you feel like a teenage boy. I have a special bonus episode for you on New Year's Eve. I did it last year and I loved it. So, be on the lookout for that. If you're subscribed, it'll just pop up in your playlist. And if you're not subscribed, what are you doing? Get subscribed. Subscribe. And also be sure to check out unplug.com and if you are in the LA area and you go to a class, you can mention MILF podcast and you will be able to redeem one free class before the end of January. Thanks so much for listening guys. I love you. Keep going.