Anna Lovind: As long as I can remember, since I learned how to write obviously and read and that was quite early before school, I've been writing. And for me it was so much about just understanding the world, making sense of things and also about surviving really because as my surroundings are idyllic. It was a quite dysfunctional family situation and then there was sexual abuse going on. I've been writing about this as well because I use this in my work to end violence against women and all that. So I've been open about that part of my story and I can see now looking back how my own writing was where I channeled all that. Obviously I didn't use those words as a small child. I didn't have those words.
Jennifer Tracy: You're listening to the Milf Podcast. This is the show where we talk about motherhood and sexuality with amazing women with fascinating stories to share on the joys of being a milf. Now here's your host, the milfiest milf I know Jennifer Tracy. Hey guys, welcome back to the show. This is Milf Podcast, the show where we talk about motherhood, entrepreneurship, sexuality and everything in between. I'm Jennifer Tracy, your host. Today on the show we have Anna Lovind. Anna lives in Sweden and she came to me through the worldwide web through our mutual friend, Jules Blaine Davis, who was on the show many months back. And Anna is such a treasure, we are kindred spirits. We're both writers and we both help other people, right? It was just fascinating speaking with her and learning about her childhood and how she grew up and her story was really a safe haven for her.
Jennifer Tracy: I had a similar experience growing up as well and still do actually. I feel like I still feel safety in story, all kinds of story, reading, song, TV, film. There's just something that is so soothing for me in going to story. And that's why I do the podcast too. And help other women share their stories to help other people feel less alone, right? Because it helps us feel less alone and less like a freak, but it helps me feel less like a freak. So yeah, really excited to share that interview with you guys. This month highlighted give is Amnesty International, they are incredible. Go to amnesty.org to learn more or you can click on the giving page on my website, milfpodcast.com. If you guys haven't yet, please take a moment. It takes about three minutes to fill out the survey for Milf Podcast. I'm just really trying to figure out more what you guys want and give you more of what you need because this is really all about you.
Jennifer Tracy: So it's milfpodcast.com\survey and I would really appreciate that. I'd like to thank today's sponsor, Serpent Lane for sponsoring today's episode. Serpent Lane is an online lingerie company that provides provocative, fun, sexy, affordable, and size inclusive lingerie. I personally own a lot of stuff from this website. It's my go to whenever I need any kind of lingerie or pole dancing gear or lingerie for pole dancing. I love it. It's really great. They do free returns. So if you order something and you try it on and you go, "That's not what I thought it would be." It's a free return. So because you're a Milf listener, you get an exclusive VIP discount code of milf 15. So when you go to serpentlane.com and you put all the things in your little shopping cart and you get to the end, you enter the code milf 15, you get 15% off. And that 15% does go a long way. It's shocking. I'm like, "I really saved a little bundle with that." So, enjoy a serpentlane.com. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Anna Lovind, enjoy. Hi Anna.
Anna Lovind: Hey. I'm so happy to be here.
Jennifer Tracy: How is Sweden? I'm so happy you're here. Thank you so much for this. This is really a treasure. So you came to me through Jules Blaine Davis.
Anna Lovind: Right? We've known each other the Instagram way.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, the Instagram way. I know, I love that. And you live in rural Sweden. Is that where you grew up?
Anna Lovind: It is. And I live now where I grew up and I spent 20 years away from here.
Jennifer Tracy: Where?
Anna Lovind: Everywhere. Basically I was traveling a lot and I mostly lived in Stockholm, but also traveled the US for a bit when I was a young adult. Across the continent in one of those old campers.
Jennifer Tracy: Really? With your family?
Anna Lovind: Yes. Well we are with my then boyfriend.
Jennifer Tracy: Right, because you said young adults, so you were already... That's fun. And so-
Anna Lovind: So we just returned here for... was it five years ago?
Jennifer Tracy: Is that boyfriend now your husband?
Anna Lovind: No, another one.
Jennifer Tracy: And growing up in Sweden, what was that like? It's funny, I have another friend Bea Akerlund from Sweden. She's a very well known, she calls herself a fashion activist and she and her husband are both from Sweden and they take their children back home every summer. And I always see the pictures. It's just like the most idyllic, beautiful place. And just on your website, I was looking at all the pictures of you in the woods and in nature and it just... I was relaxed even just looking at the photos. So I would imagine growing up in that kind of... having a childhood like that would be pretty magical.
Anna Lovind: Yeah. In that regard it was, and I didn't realize that until I was grown up actually. And I sort of noticed that however far I traveled from here and however long I stayed in other places and in the city and however much I loved that it was like I could not quite unroot myself from this landscape and from what it meant to me and this is always coming home. The forest and the lake and the mountains and the silence and all that. It's like I tried really hard to make myself a home elsewhere and now sort of, "Okay, this is it for me. This is where I'm staying now."
Jennifer Tracy: You've listened to your body and said... I love that.
Anna Lovind: It feels really good actually. Just bringing my own kids back here.
Jennifer Tracy: And how old are your kids?
Anna Lovind: 12 and 6. Two girls.
Jennifer Tracy: And were you always... So you're a writer and a storyteller and you help other women tell their stories, which is very similar to what I do on the other side of the world. Which is now, the world seems smaller in this way I think because of technology and because we can connect. It's really amazing. I grew up not in the forest of Sweden, but I grew up way outside in Colorado and my house backed up to a forest until I was nine and then we moved closer to the city. But there was no internet, there was no even cable back then. It was just some TV shows I would watch, like the old, I love Lucy and Dick van Dyke, but mostly I would go outside with my dog and I was an only child and I would just play in the woods. For me, I think back and I feel like that's when I was birthed as a storyteller. You know what I mean? And so I would imagine that you as well and probably your children have that being steeped in that kind of landscape.
Anna Lovind: Yeah. And I notice how much that's part of my language and sort of the stuff I source my writing from, even if I'm not specifically writing about the nature here or even this place or in my work. I'm writing in English mostly, so I'm not even writing in my native language. But still this is affecting everything that I am. And so it affects also how I write and what I write about and how I see the world. And all of it comes through in a way that I become more and more aware of and I find that really beautiful. I can relate to what you say about how when you were a kid and you're outside in that way that I think we were at that time. I'm not sure kids do that anymore. We're not the same way at least. We were running wild and every once in a while a parent would shout something about dinner.
Jennifer Tracy: Come in and eat.
Anna Lovind: And it's like hungry pack of wolf cubs would like-
Jennifer Tracy: It's a different time. I mean, my son is 10 and he has I mean probably too many devices and electronics and things, but he will express that he craves more outdoor time. And it's funny, we live right in the middle of West Hollywood currently and we're looking to actually move out of the city a little bit. We'll still be in Los Angeles, but he has expressed very much like he said, "It's too chaotic here. I need more nature." That's so fascinating to me because he's able to listen to what his body is saying. So did you always write as a child? Did you always write or have imaginary worlds or how was your creativity active when you were younger and then as you grew?
Anna Lovind: As long as I can remember, since I learned how to write obviously and read. And that was quite early before school, I've been writing. And for me it was so much about just understanding the world, making sense of things and also about surviving really because as my surroundings are idyllic it was a quite dysfunctional family situation. And then there was sexual abuse going on. I've been writing about this as well because I used this in my work to end violence against women and all that. So I've been open about that part of my story and I can see now looking back how my own writing was where I channeled all that. Obviously I didn't use those words as a small child.
Jennifer Tracy: Right.
Anna Lovind: I didn't have those words. But I wrote poem after poem of animals hurting, strangely invisible to everyone around them. And it was just that little girl expressing her anxiety about being abused and no one seeing it. And both reading and writing actually was crucial for me. I am not sure. I don't think actually I would have survived otherwise because that was a haven. That was a safe place. I could express myself and I could release some of that pressure inside, but also having access to other people's stories, that was like an escape. An instant escape. And I could really lose myself in other people's reading. I could lose myself in Donald Duck. I was like, "Go on." And that is the most amazing survival tool.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Well and many people, I mean myself included, I've talked about this openly on the show. I'm sober but I started drinking alcohol at a very young age and I was 12 and 13 when I really started going after it. And that was a way for me to numb out. I had the creative side too, but I also have an addictive... I'm an addict. And so I think if we can lean towards the more creative stuff... I mean my path was my path and I wouldn't change it. I'm so grateful to be where I am now and be in recovery. But yeah, it's that pain has to go somewhere.
Anna Lovind: It has to go somewhere. I can really see that now. And also I mean, looking back, I don't think I'd used the word creativity really but I'm not sure that was what I was doing at that point. I was just surviving and using whatever tools available to me and for me it was language and writing and reading. But with the wisdom of hindsight, I can look at what happened throughout my teens and I journaled. Journal after journal and sort of bringing that burning onto the page and it burned a little less for a while inside. But at some point when I started my journey towards healing, then something happened with that. It became more of an expression, not just surviving, not just holding onto the writing for dear life. And writing became more about exploring and expressing, not just the pain but other aspects of me as well.
Anna Lovind: And eventually now the last few years, I notice how my creativity sort of, not by intention really, but it seems to be something that I'm giving and that is helping people. And I think that's sort of a cycle that that is common. You use the creativity for your own healing or for your own survival and then when your healing journey has come a little further, you can sort of begin to just explore and express and then eventually it might actually help someone else heal. And then the circle continues. Looking at it like that now, I think it's beautiful. I think-
Jennifer Tracy: It's profound how we come through these journeys of recovering from all these different things, addiction, sexual abuse. I've wanted to say there's something on one of the blogs you just wrote. You said patriarchal fuckery, that is now my new favorite phrase. Thank you. I'm going to use it.
Anna Lovind: I think it sums it up neatly.
Jennifer Tracy: It does. It sums it up neatly. It's just so good. But our experiences as women, we can pass that on to other women of all ages. But just to help us... I talk about my postpartum depression often on the show, and I talk about my addiction and I talk about that romantic love is my Achilles heel. I just can't quite get it right. And I get messages all the time from women that are like, "Thank you so much for sharing this, because I just feel a little bit less alone in this moment." And that's really what it should-
Anna Lovind: That's huge.
Jennifer Tracy: It's magical. So but then you said as a young adult you were touring across America and the camper, so that's interesting. Was that your version of sort of running away or just getting out?
Anna Lovind: Right. I think it was like 10 years from when I was 16 and I sort of escaped home until I was maybe... Well actually it was when I was 22 and I found myself pregnant with a child I could not keep in a relationship that wasn't healthy. Then I sort of had this... that was the breaking point for me where I had this... I remember this moment in the car outside of the hospital where I was going to get an abortion and I was like, "This is not going to happen again. I'm not going to be in this situation where I don't even have a choice because I don't have an education. I don't have a job. I don't have anything to get." I didn't even have an actual home at that point I think. So there was something then that happened that sort of led to, "Okay, I'm going back to school. I'm going to make something of this mess."
Anna Lovind: But up until that point, I mean, I had a lot of fun, but I was crazy. I mean, I was out of control, I was everywhere, all over the place. And there were these alcoholic boyfriend after boyfriend and there was just constant [inaudible 00:17:42].
Jennifer Tracy: You were looking for something.
Anna Lovind: Looking for something, escaping something as well. It was a bandaid, being in constant motion. I was moving like... I'm 42 and I'm moved 34 times. Had 34 homes in my life and that's part of it. I was unable to be still, to be rooted. That's what I'm doing now, I'm rerouting myself, I'm staying put now and facing what's here and loving myself.
Jennifer Tracy: And so you moved back to Sweden to go to school again?
Anna Lovind: Yes. I sort of left after high school or the equivalent. It's not the exact same system and then at that point I decided to go to college or I had to sort of prepare myself to even be qualified for it. But I started that journey, took me a few years and I ended up getting a degree in language and literature and tarting that career as an editor and doing splendid. I was just head hunted to this amazing job and it was in Stockholm at this point and just doing it.
Anna Lovind: I had money for the first time in my life I was at a... And also for the first time it was like looking at me from the outside, I was doing it right. I was doing the adult thing right. And that was such a relief because I had always been the messy one, the one who couldn't get her shit together. And that point in my life, it was like, "Yeah, look at me. I'm doing it right." But it was just that I didn't want to live in the city. I didn't want that kind of work. I had a beautiful career ahead of me and I didn't want it. I like the work, I like working with the books.
Jennifer Tracy: Why didn't you want it? What was not there for you? What was absent that you craved?
Anna Lovind: Well, I think in many ways I'm almost unemployable actually because I don't know how to conform and to just like... I need to be 100% on board with a vision if I'm going to follow someone. It has happened a few times. Someone burns so brightly that I'm like, "Yeah, I'm with you. I'm on board. You are efficient. And I'm going to work for it." But that wasn't the case here because it was a big business, a lot of money, more about the money than the books and the writers and the process and all that juicy stuff that I actually enjoyed. So there came a point when I was just like, "No." And since I don't have a...
Anna Lovind: Most people was like, "What work are you doing? You have this amazing career going on and you're just going to leave it." And that's the thing for me, leaving has never been a problem. That was easy, just well, trying something else. So I started my own business and that hasn't been easy at all, but it's my vision and the stuff that I burn for and sometimes I burn too bright. But-
Jennifer Tracy: What does that mean, burn too bright? What does that mean?
Anna Lovind: Is that an expression in English that you burn the candle in both ends?
Jennifer Tracy: Yes.
Anna Lovind: You're trying to use yourself-
Jennifer Tracy: Like you overextend yourself, is that what you mean?
Anna Lovind: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Burnout. You burn out.
Anna Lovind: Burnout is the word, yeah. So that's like a cycle I have to be really... Like pay attention to it because I have those tendencies to overdoing and getting so involved in what I do.
Jennifer Tracy: Well. And I know for me too it's really the challenge, the biggest challenge is being a mom.
Anna Lovind: Right.
Jennifer Tracy: And then having my business, I mean I actually have multiple businesses really when I think about it. But that's the biggest piece because when I'm with my kid, I really just want to be with my kid. But I always feel this tug of like, "I got to respond to that. I got to call that woman back. I didn't write up that article for that magazine that wants..." I mean in my mind, I'm my own worst enemy honestly. I'm curious, when you made the decision to leave the corporate worlds, I'm just calling it corporate world, but the book world of that company, had you already become a mother?
Anna Lovind: Yes. I had my first child at that point and she was just two years old or something.
Jennifer Tracy: Do you think there's a connection between becoming a mother and then kind of getting in touch with that feeling of like, "This isn't right for me. I want to do something different."
Anna Lovind: Yeah. For me it definitely was, it also became so obvious. I mean, I've always been like a feminist. I've always been aware of these issues, but when I became a mother it became so very clear how different the playing field is. In reality, in the day to day, men and women working. And also in the creative world, the stories of the artists and all that, the topic for my new book. The path of the female creative and what their particular challenges are compared to other.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Well let's talk about that. So you've wrote a book, tell us the title.
Anna Lovind: It's called The Creative Doer, with the subtitle, A Brave Woman's Guide from Dreaming to Doing. And a brave woman because that's usually what it takes, a bit of bravery, or lots actually. And in that I sort of explore how the playing field is not even, even though we sometimes think that we have gotten so far at this point. And also there's a way of talking about creativity and the creative process and the creative life in a way that's universal. There is no difference for a female creative and a male creative. But in actuality, I mean the principals of creativity and the light cycles of the creative process and all that, that is universal. But the actual stories of the artist and the path that we recognize as the creative life, that's modeled on a male. Usually it's not modeled for a female and particularly not for a mother. And then traditionally becoming a mother is a choice, was a choice to end your creative career for sure.
Anna Lovind: I mean that was either or... And that's not true anymore, but we still face the whole range of challenges that male creatives never have to deal with it. Because I mean we still have very different ideas of what parenthood is for a mother and for a father. And we still don't have equal access to the institutions and the committees and the price. I did some research before writing this book. Like who gets the awards? Who gets the grants? Who gets space in the museums? Who gets the most talking time, gets the most reviews? Who's books cost more? All of it. It was so discouraging. It was like 3 to 5% of the big museums, 3 to 5% of the space is women because it's on that level.
Jennifer Tracy: That is this staggering number.
Anna Lovind: So I mean, we're not on a level playing field. Not at all. And what I'm interested in is just having this discussion, what does this mean? How has this scared our idea of what an artist is? The lone genius, like the man who goes off into his cabin in the woods for like six months to produce this monster piece and a mother can't do that. So how do we do it? If we want to write that book-
Jennifer Tracy: How do we do it?
Anna Lovind: Yes, we do.
Jennifer Tracy: We do.
Anna Lovind: In the midst of the mess or we don't do it at all. That's like our options basically. And I want us to talk about that so that we don't always feel like we're failing because we can't get away like that because we can't dive into our work for three months and then surface with something completed. Our path is like in and out always [crosstalk 00:26:29] everything.
Jennifer Tracy: Well, it's something that I have found and I'm struggling with at this very moment in fact is that I started writing my first novel when my son was in preschool. I worked on it really diligently for about four years and then I put it down and I haven't really touched it for almost a year. And in that time, even through those four years, and certainly now, I mean I've gotten a divorce, just a totally different person. And so I've changed and therefore the story that I'm telling is completely different even though it's a fiction.
Jennifer Tracy: It's a piece of fiction, but I'm now tasked with kind of going back and I want to basically rewrite the whole thing. And I feel both. I feel inspired and excited about the new story that I want to write. And I also feel so discouraged because I feel like, "I should have a produced piece already. I should have this." And my friends who aren't writers who want to be supportive and are loving are like, "Why haven't your finish your book yet? Why can't you just publish it? You've already done it." And I'm like, "Well, but it's not ready. I don't want to show it. And I want it to be something different now because I'm different." And it's frustrating and I struggle with it and my ego struggles with it so much.
Anna Lovind: Not being productive enough writing.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Not being productive enough, not making the sale. And it's so interesting that there's just this... I struggle with a daily of I'm either a mom or I'm an artist and I really can't be both. And I am both but it's a daily struggle for me.
Anna Lovind: Yeah. And I think it is most women's. I find that so interesting and I really appreciate you bringing this up and also having the bravery to stick with your story and not just finish it and put it out there as it is when you can sense that it's not actually true anymore. True to what you are and what you know now. Because to stick it... I mean that's integrity. That's creative integrity to be able to forego these ideas of producing. The creative life is not necessarily about producing products. It's like the process and that's so hard for us to even grasp coming from the kind of society we live in. If you can't capitalize on it, it doesn't exist or it's not worth anything at least.
Anna Lovind: And that's not true in the creative life. It's just like there are different sets of rules and different set of truths because I found that as well because The Creative Doer was actually an online course to begin with. I started writing it five years ago, and I wrote it like that, very universal. Nothing specific about a woman's situation or a mother's situation or it was just like, if you want to find time, you can and stop with the excuses. Now very simplified, but that kind of language and then sort of life taught me and I went deeper into it and realized, well yeah, sure. But it's not true that we will have the same 24 hours. It's just not, that's bullshit. That's coming from privilege. Saying that, like a single mother is not going to have the same 24 hours as a dude coming home to a set table. It's just not-
Jennifer Tracy: It's true. Well, it's like that whole Beyonce has the same whatever. Is that what you're referring to?
Anna Lovind: Yeah. And if we don't even acknowledge that, we're not gonna be able to create strategies that work for us. I mean we have to start there seeing it as it is. And this is my starting point, these are my circumstances. I cannot strive to follow in someone's footsteps when his circumstances are so different from yours.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes. So what do you say to someone when they come to you and they say, "I want to work on this project but I have five kids." What's your strategy?
Anna Lovind: Well, it's a whole lot about getting real and actually if you do have five kids, then how much time do you actually have available? Honestly. Is it 30 minutes a day? Is it 30 minutes a week? And then we have to adjust that project according to that time you have available. That's just like the basic, that's the foundation. Because we get so optimistic, it's like, "I'm going to go and swipe that big thing." Because we're so inspired by the vision. And then because it's not doable because it's not anchored into our actual life, we fail. In week two, we just head first into that wall and then some of us don't get up, some of us don't try again because we assumed it was them failing. When really it was just that they didn't look at their lives and say, "Well it doesn't matter what someone else can manage in a week or in a month or in year. What does my life look like?"
Anna Lovind: Then also of course some tough love is often needed. I mean if you have time for Netflix then obviously you could make some time for writing as well or whatever your project is. So there's that combination of having compassion for yourself. If you're a mother, let's not do what the society tells us to do to undervalue that work completely. If something you're supposed to do just on the side almost, and we're supposed to know how to do it without ever learning and we're never supposed to complain about it because we're being ungrateful. And it's a huge undertaking.
Anna Lovind: Let's start there, acknowledging that and then let's see, let's look at your days and see if we can find some time. Usually we can, it's just that we need to zoom in on that project until it's something that can actually fit into your life and then it might take you three years and instead of six months. And that's just like we were saying before, that's painful to the ego, it's stressful for someone who wants to produce. But if you actually want to make that dream happen, then that might be the timing that is doable at this point in our life and that will change. That's also important to remember. 10 years from now we won't have small kids anymore, so then we can do different things.
Jennifer Tracy: I know and I've been having this new fantasy lately that my son is 18. I don't want to rush his childhood believe me, that's not what I'm saying. But sometimes I was thinking about that too and I thought one day he won't need me and he'll be out of the house, so he'll be in college. And I was having this fantasy of getting an apartment in New York and like try Beca or Chelsea, just writing, going for coffee. I don't know, it sounded so nice. So I started looking at apartments in New York-
Anna Lovind: Getting ahead of yourself.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm still an addict. I go for the whole enchilada. I'm not going to just... But I could have spent that time writing.
Anna Lovind: You could.
Jennifer Tracy: But, no, I love to go into fantasy, probably sometimes too much. But, yes, I think it does change. And I have one of my really good friends, Sabrina. Her kids are teenagers now, they're 17 and 15 almost, they'll be next month. And her life is so different. I mean, she doesn't need a babysitter.
Anna Lovind: Exactly.
Jennifer Tracy: They are out in the world being young adults.
Anna Lovind: Yeah. I mean this parenthood is still a huge job at that when the kids are teenagers and all that. But it's not like the daily, the physical presence is not required in the same way. You're not carrying them around or cooking for them necessarily.
Jennifer Tracy: And feeding them. Yeah.
Anna Lovind: It's just a huge difference. I find there's a big shift right now also because now this year both my girls are in school. And that's awesome, something really as shifting means they're moving one more step away from me and into their own independence and into their own lives. More space available for me, if I choose to spend it for my work.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. And so you wrote this book, The Creative Doer. And it just came out.
Anna Lovind: Yeah, last week.
Jennifer Tracy: So, which by the way, is so exciting. Congratulations. That's such a huge deal.
Anna Lovind: Thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: Such a huge deal. And for our listeners, the links to buy the book and the links to Anna's website and all of that will be in the show notes on my website milfpodcast.com. What's next for you? I mean, I know you just birthed this thing, so it's like you're fresh off of that.
Anna Lovind: Yes, exactly. Really, I'm super introverted, so creating and releasing something like this is always such a stretch, even though I've done a pretty low key launch. My idea is that this book will have a long life. Everything does not have to happen this week. But still it's a launch and you need to communicate. You need to tell people about the book. Where is it? And then, it's here and it's available and this is why I wrote it and all of that. There's lots of communication. So right now I feel like I want to withdraw and don't speak to anyone for like three months straight or something like that. We're really moving into winter here and winter in Sweden is a pretty dark affair, which I don't mind. It's just that I really need to slow down with it in order to enjoy it.
Anna Lovind: So I actually appreciate stepping into that season and that made a lot of space this fall to actually be able to slow down after this big push that it is to give birth. So it's been intense and now just sort of fun to go slow for a little bit. And also just to see what happens with it, how it's received? What comes after? I want to keep it open for a little bit. But what I am noticing already, because these last few months that's been spent in the production phase, not so much in the writing phase, so I'm noticing I'm already instead of turning towards getting back into the writing, getting back into the next project and then just longing for that emotion.
Anna Lovind: Spending time with the words and the actual words because that is what I consider my actual work. All of the other things, that just happens to come along because I'm an entrepreneur. But the actual work is the writing. That's what I will be doing until my last breath probably. So I long to get back into it, just the writing. You know when you're in the stage of writing then it's really about exploring and just sort of enjoying, finding the right words and stringing sentences together. All that.
Jennifer Tracy: I had a teacher once that said, he was an acting teacher, but he said, "Have you ever painted a painting to just see what it's gonna look like?" And that's always stuck with me because I think there is a stage of that. I mean, I'm big into also having ultimately having an outline and knowing where I'm going and stuff like that. But at the very beginning stages, I think it's really important to just have that sense of play and exploration and just... I always say, and I say this to my clients, like, "Let it be messy."
Anna Lovind: Be crappy then.
Jennifer Tracy: "Let it be messy as fuck." Just let it be shitty. Write the shittiest scene you could possibly write and there's so much freedom in that because we put pressure on ourselves, which is so unrealistic to just write a perfect first draft out the gate. Nobody does that. Even the most seasoned writers, I mean, I just saw a poster for the movie Goldfinch that's coming out and Donna Tartt took 12 years to write that book.
Anna Lovind: That's mind boggling. It's amazing.
Jennifer Tracy: And it was out, it's been out several years and now there's a movie being made of it and it's just like, these things take time and we see the finished product and we see the movie poster and we think, "They just made that." It's like, "No. That's been percolating for a long time."
Anna Lovind: That's one of the things that I find it's particularly challenging for women actually to allow yourself to play and fail and be messy in that way. Because we come at our creative work with this good girl thing going on from school. You follow the rules, you behave well, you do what you're told, and you get good grades in return. That's a successful way to be actually in the school world, that's rewarded. But in the creative life, it's a disaster, right? You have to be able to fail. You have to find some kind of joy in the mess and-
Jennifer Tracy: That's true.
Anna Lovind: Bring the play back into it. I think most women run up have forgotten how to play. Not just when it comes to writing on creative work, but in life in general because we are too busy and are worrying about how we are perceived.
Jennifer Tracy: Absolutely.
Anna Lovind: Being good mothers doing our best in our careers and being good girls and being good daughters.
Jennifer Tracy: Fuck that. It's patriotic girl fuckery.
Anna Lovind: That's the fuckery right there.
Jennifer Tracy: Fuckery. Just bringing it back to what I was sharing about my novel. What's in the draft now that it's probably never going to even make it to daylight at this point. Because I'm just rewriting the whole thing, which is daunting but also exciting at the same time is that all of that writing that I did hundreds and hundreds of pages is valuable. Even though it's never going to see the light of day, I needed that exploration. I needed to write and God bless my writing coach who I just adore Lisa Cron. I would send her just horrible scenes and she would be so patient, she'd be like, "This isn't your best." But like, "What can we learn from this? What can we extrapolate? What are you trying to discover here?" And it is very [crosstalk 00:42:27].
Anna Lovind: ... to be about discovering something. Because sometimes what you're trying to write about happens at the tenth page or hundredth page even. And then, okay, also, this is what I was getting at and now I can get rid of those post hundred pages and begin the actual writing. And that's painful but that's how it is. You have to run for it.
Jennifer Tracy: I think now we're so accustomed to more so than even when we were growing up, but this has been for over a century, but much worse now is that instant gratification of, you want something delivered tomorrow, it's Amazon or whatever. You want to order food, it'll be here in 30 minutes. You want to watch a movie on demand, just push the button. There's no... and the fact is most things created from humans don't work that way. From the human mind, from our hearts and souls. It's on a different timeline.
Anna Lovind: Completely. And we never know, like you said before, you can make an outline for the writing or even for the whole project or for your business or whatever. But in the end, it's one step after another. And we make the path as we go along and we can't say in the beginning if it's 10 steps or if it's a thousand, we don't know. And we can try to make it 10 and that's going to be very painful.
Jennifer Tracy: Disappointing. Exactly. Well Anna you're such a delight and this has just been such an amazing conversation. I want to come visit you in Sweden.
Anna Lovind: Yes, do.
Jennifer Tracy: I do, I really do. It's in my heart to go there. So we've come to the time where I ask three questions and then I go into a lightning round of just fun questions. So the first question is what do you think about when you hear the milf?
Anna Lovind: Milf. You know what? I Googled it today. I didn't what I...
Jennifer Tracy: You were like, "What am I getting myself into?"
Anna Lovind: Yeah, but I listened to your podcast and I was sort of having an idea what the topics are, but I didn't know where the actual word meant. So...
Jennifer Tracy: So what did you think when Google popped up the answer?
Anna Lovind: I was like, "Okay." It was something like mother I want to fuck.
Jennifer Tracy: Fuck?
Anna Lovind: Yes. Or another alternative was mature something.
Jennifer Tracy: Interesting. Mature something?
Anna Lovind: And I figured, well I could fit into that category.
Jennifer Tracy: And I always say this, for me it's both. It's moms I'd like to fuck, and mom's I'd like to follow, that's my riff on it. And that's the subtitle of the podcast because I've always learned everything from other moms that I've walked in their footsteps. What is something you've changed your mind about recently?
Anna Lovind: I just started drinking coffee this year. I've never actually had coffee before.
Jennifer Tracy: Really? What made you change your mind? You just had a delicious cup and you said, "This is legit."
Anna Lovind: [crosstalk 00:45:58] was this person I follow on Instagram again, made something called a Mocha latte with the tahini and cherry and it was all sorts of things in it. And I don't know what made me do it because I don't for coffee, I did and then I was sort of... That was it.
Jennifer Tracy: So do you make it that way every day with all those things in it?
Anna Lovind: Some version of it.
Jennifer Tracy: That's more than just a coffee.
Anna Lovind: But I can only have it in the morning because I'm super sensitive to caffeine. So if I have it later I'll be buzzing.
Jennifer Tracy: On it. How do you define success?
Anna Lovind: I think in the way Maya Angelou described it, is an okay way to see it. I think she said liking what you do and how you do it, that's the basis of everything.
Jennifer Tracy: I love that. Okay. Lightning round of questions. Ocean or desert?
Anna Lovind: Ocean.
Jennifer Tracy: Favorite junk food ?
Anna Lovind: Sushi is kind of junk food. No.
Jennifer Tracy: You can pick whatever you want.
Anna Lovind: Because I'm crazy about sushi and where I live because I live out in nowhere, we don't have sushi. So that's what I go for, always when I come into civilized areas.
Jennifer Tracy: Movies or Broadway show?
Anna Lovind: Movies.
Jennifer Tracy: Daytime sex or nighttime sex?
Anna Lovind: Daytime. Definitely.
Jennifer Tracy: Texting or talking?
Anna Lovind: Text, I'm an introvert.
Jennifer Tracy: Cat person or dog person?
Anna Lovind: Well I don't like to choose because, but yeah, dog. I have a dog and no cats, so...
Jennifer Tracy: Have you ever worn a unitard?
Anna Lovind: No. Nor am I likely to admit [crosstalk 00:47:49].
Jennifer Tracy: Shower or bathtub?
Anna Lovind: Bathtub.
Jennifer Tracy: Ice cream or chocolate?
Anna Lovind: Chocolate.
Jennifer Tracy: On a scale of one to 10, how good are you at ping pong?
Anna Lovind: Zero, I'd say.
Jennifer Tracy: What's your biggest pet peeve?
Anna Lovind: People who eat the whole apple. Why are they eating? [crosstalk 00:48:15].
Jennifer Tracy: I thought this was going into some deep metaphor. I was like, what was she-
Anna Lovind: I'm talking about the actual apple, people who eat the actual whole apple. It drives me crazy. What's wrong with them?
Jennifer Tracy: You mean the core?
Anna Lovind: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: People do that?
Anna Lovind: People do that.
Jennifer Tracy: I love that that's your pet peeve.
Anna Lovind: Yeah, let's go on.
Jennifer Tracy: If you could push a button and it would make everyone in the world 7% happier, but it would also place a worldwide ban on all hairstyling products. Would you push it?
Anna Lovind: Well, yeah, I would because I'm super duper messy. My hair, I rarely use anything, so I wouldn't be in any trouble, I guess other would.
Jennifer Tracy: Superpower choice, invisibility, ability to fly or super strength?
Anna Lovind: Invisibility.
Jennifer Tracy: Would you rather have six fingers on both hands or a belly button that looks like foreskin?
Anna Lovind: No.
Jennifer Tracy: That's your answer. No.
Anna Lovind: That's horrible. No is my answer.
Jennifer Tracy: What was the name of your first pet?
Anna Lovind: It was a tiny little bird. I don't know, like the species in English. Maybe small, little beautiful white bird called Fia.
Jennifer Tracy: Fia. Okay. And what was the name of the street you grew up on?
Anna Lovind: [Small Swearingen 00:50:01].
Jennifer Tracy: So your porn name is Sega Sostagen.
Anna Lovind: And I think that's suitable because that's how I would fail at that profession.
Jennifer Tracy: I think it's a great name. It sounds beautiful to me.
Anna Lovind: Exotic if nothing else.
Jennifer Tracy: Very exotic. Anna, thank you so much for coming on the show. You're a delight.
Anna Lovind: Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Tracy: So happy to know you.
Anna Lovind: You too.
Jennifer Tracy: Thanks so much for listening guys. I really hope you enjoyed my conversation with Anna. Just a reminder to go check out serpentlane.com for all your lingerie needs and use that code milf 15 at checkout and save 15%. Join me next week for a fresh episode of Milf Podcast where I interview celebrity hairstylist, Kylie Heath, talk to you then. Bye.