Speaker 1: ... being able to hone in on and entertain your different moods. Am I feeling a little submissive today? Do I feel like I'd like to be objectified? Do I want something that's very sensual and intimate and romantic and just connected, or do I want something rough and disconnected and just passionate and all of these things? I mean the beauty of it is that it should be your choice. Whatever you're feeling that day, you should be able to go for it, own it, and feel safe to express that to your partner and just do it.
Jennifer Tracy: Hey, guys. Welcome back to the show. This is MILF Podcast, the show where we talk about motherhood, entrepreneurship, sexuality, and everything in between. I'm Jennifer Tracy, your host. Here we are diving towards the second half of December. This episode is coming out on December 12th. So happy 12 days of Christmas, if you celebrate that this way. I know there's many different ways it comes about.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm so excited to introduce today's guest. But before I do that, I wanted to make a couple of quick in-house announcements. You may have noticed I've been collaborating with some amazing companies. I've been calling them sponsors, but just for full transparency, there's no money being exchanged between me and these companies. This is really just me reaching out to companies that are ... Many of them, most of them are founded and run by women, some of whom are mothers, and they're just really doing amazing things with their work.
Jennifer Tracy: The mission of these companies is really beautiful. And so, I wanted to share that with you. They've been generous enough to provide you guys with an exclusive discount code. So I think that's pretty cool, too. But I'm just really about, obviously, supporting women and supporting female-run businesses.
Jennifer Tracy: One of today's companies that I'm collaborating with is called The Growing Candle. I've mentioned them on here before. I love this company. I found them by chance on my Instagram, and I ordered a candle. What it is is it's a beautiful, all-natural candle that smells incredible. I got the eucalyptus mint. Once you burn it down, it comes with a wrapper that has seeds in the wrapper. You put the wrapper in the beautiful candle container and you water it and it grows wildflowers. Now you have wildflowers in this pot, which I am a black thumb, so I'm not good at that. So we'll see if I can keep mine alive.
Jennifer Tracy: But for us exclusively, thank you, Growing Candle, we have a discount code of MILF10. For them, you're going to go to the growingcandle.com and enter the discount code MILF10. Those are some fun things you can get. It is Christmas season. You might want to use that or you might want to do something for yourself. So keep that in your back pocket.
Jennifer Tracy: I always announce the charity or organization that I'm highlighting for the month. This month I've chosen Hope Scarves. Hope Scarves is an organization that was started by Lara MacGregor. Lara came to me through the world wide web. She was a fan of the show. She emailed me and she said, "Hey, I have a story that I want to tell and I want to share with your listeners. Can I come on the show? Can I partner with you?"
Jennifer Tracy: I watched this video about her. She is a breast cancer survivor and then again was recently ... She went into remission. Then recently again was diagnosed with cancer, and this time it is terminal. She's a mom and she's absolutely freaking incredible. She started this organization called Hope Scarves. hopescarves.org is how you can learn about them.
Jennifer Tracy: Again, all of these will be in the show notes on milfpodcast.com. Anytime I mention anything on the show like this, you don't have to remember it. You could just go to the podcast website later when you have a mo and check it out. Everything will be clickable and you can go and see that there.
Jennifer Tracy: So Lara started Hope Scarves because when she was in cancer treatment and her hair was falling out because of chemo, someone gave her these scarves that they had used, another cancer survivor. There were these beautiful headscarves. She said, "Wearing them gave me such strength because they had this person's story and this person's recovery attached to them."
Jennifer Tracy: Then Lara got out of treatment and she didn't need them anymore. Her hair started growing back. She called the woman and said, "Hey, I'm done with these scarves. Where can I send them?" The woman said, "No, pass them on to someone else who's in treatment." Lara said, "Oh, my gosh. Of course, yes."
Jennifer Tracy: And so, that began this beautiful dream that she's now manifested into a reality of this organization where cancer survivors continually give this chain of scarves to each other and include their stories of recovery in it, their stories of recovery, their stories of treatment, their stories of all the things that happened, the trauma of it, everything. It's all on there on the website.
Jennifer Tracy: You can get involved. You can donate, you can buy scarves, you can gift scarves. It's really beautiful. You can write your story and submit it to the website. I'm just absolute blown away by this woman and by this whole organization. Her episode is coming up in January, so I look forward to sharing that with you guys.
Jennifer Tracy: Without further ado, I'm going to introduce today's guest. Today's guest I cannot introduce by name because she is anonymous. Today's guest came to me through a friend who mentioned to me, "Oh, hey," I don't even know what we were talking about, but she said, "Yeah, yeah. I have this friend and she's a single mom. She does sex cam work." I said, "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Excuse?" My friend said, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She makes really good money and she does that because she's a single mom and she's struggling. She's pursuing something else."
Jennifer Tracy: I immediately said, "Do you think she'd be on the show?" and she said, "I don't know. Let me call her." She called her friend and her friend said yes. I said, "Oh, my God. I'm so excited, I can't hardly contain myself."
Jennifer Tracy: The woman came to my home and we did the interview here. I asked her almost everything I wanted to know. I mean there wasn't quite enough time within an hour. But she was so wonderful and so open and so fabulous. I have been just sitting on pins and needles waiting to share this episode with you guys because it's really juicy. It's really, really juicy. Without further ado, for the first time in MILF history, I would like to introduce today's guest, your anonymous MILF. Please enjoy my conversation with her. Hi.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Jennifer Tracy: Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, seriously.
Jennifer Tracy: This is so exciting. I'm so honored. What a beautiful ... You're friends with my friend, and so that's how I found you. I just love that connection of women connecting women. There's something really great about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she texted me and I just said, "Absolutely. I'm totally doing that."
Jennifer Tracy: I'm so, so happy. Once I heard your story, she just was talking about you and I said, "Would she be on the show?"
Speaker 1: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Anyway, this is really epic. Thank you for being here. I want to start a little bit from the beginning. Where did you grow up?
Speaker 1: I grew up here. I grew up in LA.
Jennifer Tracy: You're a native.
Speaker 1: I'm a native. We are rare, but we exist. I grew up in Hollywood Hills-ish area-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1: ... born and raised.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay.
Speaker 1: I never managed to leave. I love it here, this weird little bubble that we're in.
Jennifer Tracy: It is a weird little bubble. It is a weird little bubble that it currently burning, but we hope that they get that sorted out. Every year it seems like it's worse. Even though it was horrible last year.
Speaker 1: There's something so apocalyptic about it now. It's a very different energy. Everyone feels very frantic and packed together and worried and just ... They're all over the place. They keep popping up.
Jennifer Tracy: I know.
Speaker 1: So it feels different this time.
Jennifer Tracy: It does feel apocalyptic. I couldn't say that word, but, yes, opakapaka, opakapa. Not the fish, opakapaka, that you eat in Hawaii. So you grew up here. When you graduated high school, did you go to college after that?
Speaker 1: I did. I went to USC and I studied journalism and minored in Art History and Italian.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, awesome.
Speaker 1: I wanted to learn everything. I almost didn't care what I did with that major as a career. I went to school to go to class. I wanted to just choose and flip through the course catalog and just blindly choose whatever I wanted to learn. So I chose the most random classes all the time and just wanted to suck it all up before I had to start paying my own bills.
Jennifer Tracy: Real life. Yeah, totally, really. What happened when you had to start real life? Did you stay in school? Did you go to more school like some people do?
Speaker 1: No, actually my ... Let's see. When I was entering my senior year of high school, I met may soon-to-be husband and then later to-be-ex husband.
Jennifer Tracy: Got it.
Speaker 1: But, yeah, we met at a bar when I was just about to turn 21. Right after that, I just went into senior year of school, graduated, went into a couple internships, one of them which turned to a job. But he and I stayed together all of my 20s.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: I didn't go back to school or I didn't seek higher education beyond college.
Jennifer Tracy: And you're 32 now?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just turned 32.
Jennifer Tracy: So you guys were together and got married?
Speaker 1: Yeah. We got married when I was 25.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my gosh. That's so young.
Speaker 1: And so young.
Jennifer Tracy: But when you're 25, you don't think it's young. You think you know everything, or I did. I just-
Speaker 1: No, you're so cocky and you're just like, "I know what I'm doing."
Jennifer Tracy: You're so cocky.
Speaker 1: "I'm an adult now. I'm in my mid-20s and I'm going to do it. This is the greatest decision ... " I mean my whole family had their jaws on the floor, like, "Are you sure? Are you sure about that?" because my ex-husband is 17 years older than I am.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, wow!
Speaker 1: So I just said, "Well, he knows what he's doing. I know what I'm doing. So, combined, we both really know what we're doing. The bird and the fish are going to make it work. You all just watch." Little did I know, it was like a decade-long dumpster fire that everybody was so shocked at.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, honey. Oh, God.
Speaker 1: But I mean, yeah, I really thought I knew what I was doing, but I was the guinea pig amongst my friends for real adult relationship, marriage, and then eventually getting pregnant and having a baby. I mean I was really like ... I was patient zero to my friends for what it's like to do that. It was exciting, but isolating at the same time.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Where you working at the time?
Speaker 1: I was working, yes. I was a personal shopper. So I was doing that.
Jennifer Tracy: [crosstalk 00:11:12]. That sounds fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really fun. I was also working in retail simultaneously. Then when I got pregnant, I worked probably all the way up until eight months, and then became a stay-at-home mom.
Jennifer Tracy: Was that because there was no way for you to actually work and have childcare and have the money make sense, or were you just like, "I just want to be with my baby"? What's that decision born out of?
Speaker 1: I think it was just the idea ... My mom was a stay-at-home mom, so I think just on influence and imprinting alone, I thought that was what I wanted to do as well. But I mean it was a myriad of things. After a year, I was itching to go back to work. Also, we weren't working out. It was very tumultuous towards the end. So I wanted to make money of my own. It was starting to make me a little nervous to be financially dependent on somebody that I knew in my heart I eventually was going to leave.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was two-sided, I guess, that I walked away from being a stay-at-home mom. But in the beginning, it felt so right. That's what I wanted to do. And I'm so grateful for that year, I really am, because you never get that back.
Jennifer Tracy: You don't.
Speaker 1: I was really fortunate enough to be able to do that. It was great.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. As exhausting as it is, it's ... I mean it's exhausting either way. I was also a stay-at-home mom. I hate that term. I don't know why. I guess it's because of my own old definitions of it, because it's like it doesn't ...
Speaker 1: You're not doing nothing.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. It's not like you're just staying at home, eating bonbons, watching Ellen. You are caring for an infant full time. Also, I don't want to disrespect the women that go right back to work-
Speaker 1: Oh, not at all.
Jennifer Tracy: ... after they finish their maternity leave. I think both are really hard and there's mom guilt that come with both. It's just a personal choice. I wish people had more of a choice. I was interviewing a woman a couple of weeks ago. She lives in Canada. And I didn't know this until I talked to her. Canada gives you one year. Canada, the country of Canada, the government pays you one year of maternity leave.
Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
Jennifer Tracy: One year.
Speaker 1: I was fortunate enough where I was working that I had six months paid leave. Then I had an additional two months that were unpaid, but with job security-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that's great.
Speaker 1: ... should I want to come back. So I took that eight months with the knowledge that I wasn't going to come back. But then the rest of the four months of that year, I obviously paid my own way through it.
Jennifer Tracy: That's great.
Speaker 1: But, yeah, it's funny. You get that guilt externally and internally. You give yourself shit for staying at home because you feel comparatively that you're not doing enough. Some people give you shit. You get it either way.
Jennifer Tracy: It's true.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what you do, somebody else is always going to say something, a side comment, a passive-aggressive comment.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, and if you're working-
Speaker 1: If you decide to have one kid-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, God. [crosstalk 00:14:19].
Speaker 1: ... why didn't you have another one.
Jennifer Tracy: All the things, people's opinions. That's so funny. Also, conversely, I have many friends who work and have nannies, or who don't even work and have nannies, and it's like, "Oh, you have a nanny." It's like, fuck yeah, she has a nanny, bitch. You wish you had a nanny.
Speaker 1: Bitch, I'd kill to have a nanny.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm so happy for her.
Speaker 1: I'd sell an organ on the black market to have a nanny. Give me. Can we share?
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. It's just so funny. Instead of elevating each other, sometimes, not always ... Oh, I'm so sorry, listeners. I knew the gardeners were going to be here at this time.
Speaker 1: Someone's at the door, and you all got to know about it.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, he just likes to ... Yeah. Sorry about that. He will do it one more time when the gardener leaves.
Speaker 1: Guaranteed.
Jennifer Tracy: So at a year, when your daughter ... You have a daughter, right?
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Tracy: When your daughter was one, is that when you decided to leave your marriage and start working again, or what was the chronology of things?
Speaker 1: It was a lot. I guess there's so many things that led up to it. When I found out I was pregnant ... And we had been trying. We weren't unprepared for it. We'd been talking about it, planning for it. I went off of birth control. We started using condoms. We were planning to have a baby.
Speaker 1: So when I found out I was pregnant, his reaction to it, I think, the reality had hit him when I burst out of the bathroom really excited with a positive test. It's like all the color drained from his face. Zero excitement. It just was this very weird moment. It just set the tone for the whole pregnancy.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was bad. When your friends obviously ask you, like, "Oh, was he really excited? What was his reaction?" I found myself lying every time, just saying, "Oh, he was thrilled." It was mildly heartbreaking, really, because you want to be on the same page of excitement. Obviously, I'm human and I know that having a child is nerve-racking and terrifying and all of this things, but there wasn't even a tinge of excitement in there. I think that really was confusing for me and upsetting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just set the tone for the pregnancy. He had been struggling with alcohol and drug addiction. And so, it just became tenfold while I was pregnant. I don't know if it was because of the building pressure or whatever reasons, but it got very bad. He would leave on benders for days at a time.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God.
Speaker 1: I was alone a lot when I was pregnant.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1: It's funny because I eventually told my sister, because nobody really knew what I was going through at the time. But I told her later that I would have these recurring dreams that she was in the delivery room with me every time. It was very weird. Even my subconscious was wishing that I was almost going through this alone by choice. It was the removal of choice to be isolated in this very hormonal and intense and stressful experience-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God. Yeah.
Speaker 1: ... and to feel like you're alone in it, but not by choice. This person is choosing to not be here and not help.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, abandoned.
Speaker 1: Abandoned.
Jennifer Tracy: You're abandoned.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so, when we had her, we were in this beautiful little bubble of being together for just this little moment. Looking back on it, it was sad, but I held onto these couple months that we were really in this together. You think to yourself, like, "Oh, maybe this changed everything. Actually having her reset reality and maybe we're on our way toward recovery together and recovery for him separately."
Speaker 1: I think as soon as he thought that I was okay, that I was healthy and healing ... I'd had a C-section, that I was healed and everything was going swimmingly, he started to go out again a little more and a little more and a little more. Then it took off.
Speaker 1: And so, I feel like I'd just been slowly building to leave. I just didn't have the guts to do it for a while. Then I finally did, because it got so bad and got abusive toward the end. And it was time.
Jennifer Tracy: Physically, emotionally, both?
Speaker 1: Emotionally and verbally for a very long time, which is confusing. When you've been with someone for that long, when you've met somebody when you're just a child really, I mean, looking back on it, when you're 21, you're a kid and you think you know everything, but you're still forming yourself. And so, to form yourself alongside somebody that's simultaneously hurting you and then healing you is very disorienting, very dizzying.
Speaker 1: He was the person that would pick me up after he just slammed me on the ground. It's a very toxic and co-dependent sphere that you spend way too much time in.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. It's like a rabbit hole and you just can't-
Speaker 1: It's a loop that you find yourself in.
Jennifer Tracy: It's a loop, yeah.
Speaker 1: It drives you crazy slowly, where you know that this is hurtful, abusive, that it's hurting you, that you should not be in this, but then at the same time they're loving you abundantly the next day, apologizing, making it up to you, making promises and all these things. So you're just training yourself to keep believing it, keep staying hopeful, that little bit that maybe we can work on this and, oh, he really didn't mean it.
Speaker 1: When you start making excuses for someone, you almost become their PR person. You'd start saying like, "Oh, he was in a bad mood that day," or, "I went a little too far and I pushed him to say those things or to do those things." It was my daughter, I think, that really got me out of it. There was one day where he was screaming at me, I mean inches away from my face, spitting on me, screaming at me-
Jennifer Tracy: Was he drunk or just in a rage, or both?
Speaker 1: Just in a rage. I think it was more of like he was jonesing to go out and use. I could see it. It was like a pattern most of the time because I knew him so well. He would create conflict in order to storm out the door. It gave him permission to leave and to go.
Speaker 1: So he was inches away from my face and screaming at me. I glanced over and my daughter was just staring at me. I think that it was just this total aha, come-to-Jesus moment where I just thought to myself, I was like I'm being humiliated in front of my own child. Also, if she were to ever come to me and say that somebody was treating her that way, who am I to say, "You should leave him"? Look who I'm standing next to. She was the one, honestly, that ... She made me leave. It was-
Jennifer Tracy: How old was she at that point?
Speaker 1: She was almost had just turned a year old.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: Again, I was a stay-at-home mom, so I didn't have any money of my own. He controlled all the finances. We weren't even joint bank account. He controlled everything. So I had to do everything very quietly and very discreetly. I started a private GoFundMe and just texted it to all my friends and told them to send it to their family.
Jennifer Tracy: So that you could get out of the marriage.
Speaker 1: I raised money for a retainer for a lawyer privately.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God. Wow!
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm very grateful for my friends and my family to help me do that. Then I finally did. Again, simultaneously, I was reaching out to find jobs and to do things. I had a few amazing, amazing friends that just really went above and beyond to make that happen for me.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow, girl! I mean it's so amazing. I don't know if you know any of my story, but I went through a divorce. Fortunately, my ex-husband and I are ... And we've been divorced just over a year now, but we're separated for three. We were together 14. He and I are actually both sober ...
Speaker 1: Oh, great.
Jennifer Tracy: ... a long time. I'm so grateful that, even though divorce is never fun, it was yucky and the mediation was yucky, but it was as amicable as I could hope for it to be. We're still really great friends and great co-parents and everything.
Speaker 1: Oh, good.
Jennifer Tracy: But for me, it took me years to decide to leave and to also know that I would be okay financially. There are many days that I still don't because-
Speaker 1: Oh, I completely understand that.
Jennifer Tracy: It's terrifying. As a woman, we earn $0.80 to the comparative dollar, like all the things. It's just not set up for us to be mothers and independent workers.
Speaker 1: Single working mothers ...
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God.
Speaker 1: ... Yeah, it's not set up for us that way. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Jennifer Tracy: What kind of work did you get at the time?
Speaker 1: I got work as an executive assistant, just for a friend's mom, that I started doing. I was making decent money. I had health insurance and she worked with me on my hours so that I could do daycare or preschool drop-offs and pickups without it interfering with my work and my life. I was really grateful for that. Obviously, having grown up in Los Angeles, I moved back in with my parents, which was a godsend.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, thank God.
Speaker 1: For someone with no money and a kid, it was like free childcare. My dad was sick at the time, so it was almost a mutual leaning between me and my mom, where I helped my mom in caring for my dad and she helped me in caring for my kid. It was kind of beautiful in that way, to come back to that house where I could give back to them. But they obviously took care of me as they always did. So, yeah, it was nice.
Speaker 1: It's amazing when you come out of a marriage like that. I was 29 and I had almost zero clue that anybody would ever want to date me ever again. I felt so undesirable and hopeless. I felt like damaged goods, I had a kid. Suddenly you're competing with this pool in Los Angeles of just ... I mean these people that are seemingly perfect from the outside, and here I am and I'm like I'm a fucking mess. Who's going to go for this?
Jennifer Tracy: Well, you now this now, but they're a fucking mess, too. Every single one of them is a fucking mess.
Speaker 1: Oh, believe me, I know that.
Jennifer Tracy: But, yeah, I know that feeling in the moment. It's like I'm washed up.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm all washed up.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Who's going to want this?
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Luckily, I snapped out of that.
Jennifer Tracy: Shift to that.
Speaker 1: But I was in the supermarket and my daughter was in the shopping cart, and this guy, who was really handsome, he hit on me at the supermarket. And it was like me talk pretty one day. I have no idea what to say to him. I had no idea. I just had this blank stare. I couldn't understand why he was talking to me. He backed away slowly and went back from whence he came. But I had zero clue. And with the dating apps and everything-
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, God, girl.
Speaker 1: ... they were invented while I was married. So I felt like somebody that got out of prison when the internet was invented. I was just like, "What the fuck are these? I get to window shop for humans? This is amazing."
Jennifer Tracy: I mean it's so weird. It's the weirdest thing.
Speaker 1: It's so crazy.
Jennifer Tracy: Did you go on a date with that gentleman?
Speaker 1: No, I didn't. I literally just stared at him.
Jennifer Tracy: You were still [crosstalk 00:26:11].
Speaker 1: I had no idea. No clue. None. But then I went on this dating rampage and, yeah, that was fun. It was a nice personal exercise just to remind me like, "You're fine. You're okay."
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah, you've got this, girl.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You are still a desirable, viable human being that people find to be interesting and not-
Jennifer Tracy: Compelling and sexy.
Speaker 1: ... hopeless and virile. Yes, there was a big yes that came back to me where it just gave me hope. It made me feel like I can do this.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. Okay, so you're executive assisting. How long did that last?
Speaker 1: That lasted a year and a half. That job was just running its course for me. And so, I reached out to another friend of mine who had mentioned that the place she worked for was looking for an executive assistant. So I went over there, which was wonderful and I loved it.
Speaker 1: But there was always part of me ... For a long time, I'd always wanted to get my real estate license. And I hadn't had the time. I didn't have the luxury of time to just study and just stop working and go for it. I felt like when I left there, it was time. I had been quietly studying every weekend and going for it.
Speaker 1: I finally passed my real estate license exam and I signed on with a team. And so, I now have my real estate license, but in the meantime, while I'm building that into being a substantial business, I have to get creative and find other means of making money.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. So let's dive into that, which was a reason, if not the reason, that I wanted you to be on the show. Can you say what this work is?
Speaker 1: I can.
Jennifer Tracy: What do you call it?
Speaker 1: I mean I guess I would call it camming.
Jennifer Tracy: Camming, okay.
Speaker 1: Yes, but it's a lot of other things tied with that. How it started was actually really interesting, too. Let's see. Let's go back. A few months into starting at that new place as an executive assistant, I met a guy, went out on a date with him. He was lovely. We hit it off and we started dating. But it was very hot and heavy and passionate and fast and furious. We were both very sexual, just like passionate people. We just latched on to one another.
Speaker 1: It was wonderful. It was sort of like rumspringa amongst the two of us where we just wanted to live our lives fully next to each other, which, in retrospect, was probably not the healthiest thing.
Jennifer Tracy: But it's fun to do that.
Speaker 1: But it's fun.
Jennifer Tracy: Especially coming out of everything you've just been through.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. On top of all of the junk that happened when I was married, it was also very sexually controlling and repressive. I've always been a naturally very sensual and exploratory person. And so, to have that be repressed for almost a decade, I couldn't wait to re-explore that in my 30s. What a wonderful time to do that when I actually know what to do with my body and I'm not like this baby giraffe walking around in the sex world.
Jennifer Tracy: Totally.
Speaker 1: Anyway, we would have these conversations all the time that were about fantasies and desire and what would you try that you've never tried before, what have you always wanted to do, but you felt that you couldn't do with a partner because you felt shame or embarrassment or whatever. He was honest enough with me to say that he would love to watch me with someone else.
Speaker 1: And so, I'm very open. I'm very ... Yeah, I'll try anything almost. And so, I just said, "Yeah, let's just try it. Why not? I said, "I don't even know where to begin. How do we find this person? What do we do?" And so, we just put our heads together and started thinking about it and putting it together. I went on Reddit, and Reddit is just this dark ... I mean some people go on there for political links or links about science or just funny memes.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow! I had no idea. The only time-
Speaker 1: But there is a dark underbelly that I never knew about.
Jennifer Tracy: Really? Okay. I never knew that.
Speaker 1: You could find literally anything on there. Anything that you are into or looking for, you just type it in and up it pops. And so, we went on there. It was all faceless, it was anonymous. I basically put out a little ad looking for somebody to join us for the night. I mean it was like I was writing down a recipe. I listed down my physical specifications and you must be this tall to ride.
Jennifer Tracy: This tall to ride.
Speaker 1: It was really fun. We ended up finding somebody, and it was really fun. I think the problem there, though, was that it should have just been maybe a one-off experience or something that maybe happened once a year or once every six months. But I think it started to evolve into becoming a lifestyle, which is something that I didn't really want.
Speaker 1: I think, comparatively also, he wanted to have his own fun in that way. And so, then he started playing on his side, but it wasn't with me. It was one-on-one. Then that created paranoia and jealousy and all-
Jennifer Tracy: Sure.
Speaker 1: Anyways, I mean I'm sure we can all guess that that led to the ruin of the two us. However, this whole world of Reddit was exposed to me and I started doing my research on there and just looking on there. There is a particular ... That's called subreddits. There's a particular subreddit called Gone Wild. It has almost, I think, three million subscribers.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: Three million.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: I mean it's incredible. It's these women and girls. I mean most of them are college-age or in their 20s, and they're just posting these very real nudes of themselves that are clearly taken with like an iPhone or their cellphone. They're not perfect. There's cellulites and bumps and lumps and all of these perfectly imperfect beautiful women on there just showcasing themselves either faceless or with face, whatever you want to do.
Speaker 1: But I have always been an exhibitionist. I've always been kind of a show pony and a performer in my own way in my body. I'm very rooted in my body. I like moving it and showing off in front of either partners or just people in general. I said to my boyfriend at the time, I was like, "I want to do that. I want to post a photo of myself." He said, "Go for it."
Speaker 1: I was a little nervous because, obviously, as women, we're cripplingly comparative creatures. We stand ourselves next to these girls that are just bouncy and elastic and perfect. They're just like, "Oh, on my way to philosophy class," like not an ounce of anything wrong on them, and you're just like, "Well, fuck, I'm going to go right after you? This sucks."
Speaker 1: And so, I uploaded a photo and, to my surprise, I got hundreds of messages from people that were just saying ... Besides, obviously, the very fun and salacious and dirty comments, I got these messages that just said, "I commend you being on here. As a fellow single parent, you're so beautiful. I just wanted to say having a post-baby body, you are standing and perfect," and all these things. I have to say it's kind of an addictive feeling to get that validation, especially post-baby, where you're so unsure about your body and how it looks.
Jennifer Tracy: You literally had your body cut open.
Speaker 1: I did, yeah, and it's a little nerve-racking to be naked in front of people for the first time. To get that response from people, there is just this exclamation point, like, "Wow! You look amazing," you just say, "I do? Really? Thanks. Okay." It feels awesome. From there, I just kept posting a photo or a video every once in a while, obviously all faceless or the bottom half of my face.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm sorry to interrupt you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:34:59].
Jennifer Tracy: You have written a little bit about yourself, saying that you were a single parent and ...
Speaker 1: My captions would always be very enticing or clever. I guess I was thinking to myself, "How could I set myself apart from these girls?" because it becomes a little bit monotonous when you like this perky coed perfection that's just flooding the internet.
Speaker 1: I have to say I have a hard time looking away from it because it's just gorgeous. It's like looking into a fire. But with me, I just said, "Okay. Well, how can I set myself apart a little bit?" And so, I think one of my first captions was like, "Not bad for a mom, huh?" and just has a question mark. The response just was overwhelming. Then from there, I just went with it and made it my own thing.
Speaker 1: It felt good almost making it my own thing. It was separate from my boyfriend at the time. It was all mine. It was something that I used as my own platform for empowerment and encouragement and just exhibitionism and fun and feeling sexy and beautiful in my own way. It felt right to be doing that as my own form of sexual expression just for me.
Speaker 1: I felt like it was also safe. It was behind glass. No one could touch me or really know who I was. You can create this persona a little bit, which, in the midst of everyday mom life, is a really nice escape to be in this fantasy world where you're like this sexual superhero amongst people. They're so excited and clamoring to see your next photo or video. It's a little intoxicating, to be honest.
Jennifer Tracy: Well, it's interesting, this conversation. Then I want to get into how that segued into the camming. But this idea of objectification being a negative thing, like there are many times that I want to be objectified as a woman-
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Jennifer Tracy: ... and as a sexual entity. It's a gray area that, unfortunately, many predatory people, men and women, have taken advantage of. It's like we're finding, I think, as a society these little areas of gray, or we're making our own way of where that can be safe for us. We have to know ourselves first a little bit, but ... It's validating, but, more than that, it's just satiating to feel that-
Speaker 1: It's delicious. It really is. It's such an incredible experience. I couldn't agree with you more, is that I ... Obviously, variety is incredible. So being able to hone in on and entertain your different moods. Am I feeling a little submissive today? Do I feel like I'd like to be objectified? Or do I want something that's very sensual and intimate and romantic and just connected or do I want something rough and disconnected and just passionate and all of these things?
Speaker 1: I mean the beauty of it is that it should be your choice. Whatever you're feeling that day, you should be able to go for it, own it, and feel safe to express that to your partner and just do it. I love that, that in this safe space, I could just think to myself, huh, I want to feel a little bit like ... Not like a little girl really, but just taken care of. I want to feel small and next to somebody who's very masculine and dominating. And so, I'd like to make a video or a photo where I look a little bit cuter instead of like this grown woman. But it's my choice. It's fun. It's like I'm fulfilling whatever character that I feel like being that day.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah. So tell me how you segued from posting these photos as really just a form of your own expression ... There was no money exchanged for these, the is just your own personal gratification, really. How did that segue into the camming?
Speaker 1: Okay. I am-
Jennifer Tracy: Is camming spelled with one 'M' or two 'M's?
Speaker 1: Two 'M's. Otherwise, it's caming.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm sure that's a thing somewhere.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a subreddit for that.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm sure there is.
Speaker 1: When I was posting, I would get tons of messages from people asking, "Do you sell private content? Do you have a premium Snapchat? Do you have all of these things?" and I would dismiss them. I would ignore them every single time because, in my mind, I was with somebody at the time, and it wasn't really the point of it. The point of it for me was just this reclaiming of my sexuality and owning it. That was currency in itself for me.
Speaker 1: However, I'm a single-income single mom. And so, after a while, when you get that many messages, you start to think to yourself like, "I could actually make something out of this," if not just literally having money, like a little stash of money every week to pay bills. I mean that sounds incredible. Just one less worry off of my mind because I sent five photos to somebody for $50. Great. Why not?
Speaker 1: And so, I feel like it was when my boyfriend and I broke up. That, in a weird way, gave me a little bit more permission to explore the monetization of that and really going for it. I just ... Who is maybe the first person that paid me for something? I'm trying to think. Oh, there was a guy, he messaged me, and he has a panty fetish. He asked if he could buy my underwear off of me.
Jennifer Tracy: I love it.
Speaker 1: I just thought to myself, I'm like ... I mean these are from Costco. I'm like, "Okay. Live your dreams out loud, buddy."
Jennifer Tracy: You want some Kirkland underwear? Yeah.
Speaker 1: You want some high-cut cotton briefs?
Jennifer Tracy: Do you want a 24-pack of water with that? That is awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was like I paid $25 for five of these, so, yeah, sure. I'll do that.
Jennifer Tracy: How much did he pay you for one pair?
Speaker 1: $75.
Jennifer Tracy: Shut up.
Speaker 1: I just thought to myself, "Well, this is great."
Jennifer Tracy: Wait a minute. You had to give it honest, but did you just shove them in an envelope and then walked over to the post office? I mean you didn't give-
Speaker 1: If I'm going to go for something, I'm going to go for it.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, tell me how.
Speaker 1: You're going to get the full thing.
Jennifer Tracy: I want to know.
Speaker 1: I-
Jennifer Tracy: Right. I'm being so crash. Shove them in an envelope.
Speaker 1: Yeah, God.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm sure they were wrapped in silk ribbon. Yes, I'm sure. Just looking at you and how beautifully put together you are just [inaudible 00:41:55].
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, go on.
Speaker 1: So he had specifications. He wanted me to wear them for 24 hours.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh.
Speaker 1: And he wanted me to exercise in them.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, God. Okay.
Speaker 1: So live your dreams out loud, whatever floats your boat. But I just said I mean I would do that anyways. So, sure, I'll just send them to a PO box when I'm done. I folded them very nicely and I put them in almost like a sachet-
Jennifer Tracy: Of course, you did.
Speaker 1: ... [crosstalk 00:42:23] thing. Of course, I did. But I also had them wrapped so that the odor was preserved on the underwear.
Jennifer Tracy: Got it.
Speaker 1: I wrote a note to him saying, "Thank you."
Jennifer Tracy: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. How do you preserve the odor? Was it in a baggy, like a Ziploc baggy?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Saran wrap?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Then sent it to ... I mean-
Jennifer Tracy: I love it.
Speaker 1: ... it's just as funny to me as it is to you.
Jennifer Tracy: I love it. I'm loving every minute of this.
Speaker 1: So then I sent them to him, and it was to a PO box. My address was anonymous as well. I messaged him right as I was about to send them, and he sent them to my anonymous PayPal that I have set up through Reddit with my Reddit name, so nobody knows my real name. And, yeah, sent it to him. He was super grateful. I mean he did it with me probably every week for a couple of months. I mean-
Jennifer Tracy: Wow! That's-
Speaker 1: ... that's my gas every week.
Jennifer Tracy: I was just going to say that's your-
Speaker 1: So it's like, "Thanks, buddy," like it's making my weekly commutes a lot less stressful.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God. So, okay, that was the first one. What were the next couple of requests?
Speaker 1: Socks, underwear, socks and underwear. If I wear a full outfit on there, they would offer to buy the entire outfit that I wore.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm assuming they're all gentlemen. Were there some ladies?
Speaker 1: There are ladies that message me that just say, "I love you," or, "I love your posts," and, "You're so sexy," or, "Are you interested in women?" but they aren't clients, let's say. They aren't paying clients.
Jennifer Tracy: Got it. Okay.
Speaker 1: But I love those messages just as much.
Jennifer Tracy: So your clients are men. Were these men that you were mailing clothing items to, were they engaging with you on video? Were they asking you for photographs? They just wanted your clothes?
Speaker 1: They just wanted my clothes. However, it's almost strange how this came so naturally to me, this whole world. They would ask if they could have a daily photo or an update of me wearing the socks, and I would immediately just reply like, "I'm going to charge you extra for that." Most of them said, "Okay." And so, I would make double off of it. It still blows my mind how this is even happening really.
Jennifer Tracy: Well, okay, so but ... I just have so many questions. Thank you for being so patient with me, because this is so fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for being patient with me trying to put it into words. It's kind of hard.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God. No, you're doing great. Are you kidding?
Speaker 1: Okay.
Jennifer Tracy: You're killing this. You had previously posted in this account that you have some nude photos of yourself, or photos of yourself in lingerie, or both, all without your face. That was the sexual arousal part that led them to whatever their fetishes are. Have there and were there at that time ... Because how long have you been doing this now?
Speaker 1: I've been doing it for almost a year.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay. Were there requests and are there requests for videos, or is there a thing where it's like Skype where the person's live on the other end?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's multiple requests. There's people that ask for live Skype sessions or Snapchat.
Jennifer Tracy: Do you do that?
Speaker 1: I've done it a couple of times. I didn't really enjoy it, though, so I say no to it now.
Jennifer Tracy: What didn't you enjoy about it? Did it feel too personal?
Speaker 1: That I don't mind really. It's more of something ... And I'm not saying that my socks and underwear turn me on. That sect of it is harmless for me to send to people. I'm not worse for wear. There's no real time consumption that's coming out of that. I'm not exposing anything really personal of myself to them. I'm literally just sending them my clothing. It's like sexual eBay. I mean, really, that's just what it equates to in my mind.
Speaker 1: If there's a part of me that hesitates that I might not want to do it, or doesn't turn me on, or I'm a little worried about it, I usually say no, even if they offer me money. I think there is a lot more money in live Skype sessions, so I usually will make custom videos for somebody, or I make them on my own time. They're not live. They give me their little requirements of what they'd love to see or what really turns them on. Then I make it for them and send it to them.
Jennifer Tracy: I see, all through the platform, so it's all safe.
Speaker 1: Yes. There's something about, for me at least, with the live Skype sessions. There are women that make a full-time living out of camming. This is a part-time thing for me, so it's also time management. I'm doing school pickups and school drop-offs and all these things. I don't have time to just do these back and forth videos.
Jennifer Tracy: When do you do this? Do you do it during the day when your daughter's at school?
Speaker 1: During the day or at night when she's asleep.
Jennifer Tracy: After she's asleep.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's literally whenever she's not in the house-
Jennifer Tracy: Of course, yeah.
Speaker 1: ... or not awake. I find that live, people start requesting more and more and more and ask for more and more and more. In the moment, it's a little awkward to demand more or ask for more because you're in this momentum.
Jennifer Tracy: Vulnerable. Or if you're vulnerable, if you're like ... Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's just not for me. So I do more of like custom content where somebody will say, "I'd really love it if you dressed up in black lingerie and like stripped," or, "I'd really love it if you were dressed the whole time and just talking to me." People want different things all the time.
Speaker 1: But what I've also made a decent amount of money off of is phone sex. It's literally just audio. I myself love audio. I love sound. Sound is really important to me, especially in a sexual sphere.
Jennifer Tracy: It's so intimate to have that.
Speaker 1: It is so intimate. There's also something about video, that I'm most likely not going to get off if I'm live video chatting with you. I'm really distracted. I feel like I need to perform. Does my body look okay? Are you turned on? Oh, wait. I can't show my ... Like I'm trying not to show my face.
Speaker 1: If I were this girl that just it's all out there, you could see my face and it's not ... I'd probably be fine. I'd just prop the phone up and do whatever I want. But I'm very aware of my movements and not getting caught in the frame where you see who I am and all these things.
Jennifer Tracy: Sure.
Speaker 1: So it's not fun for me. I'm not going to do it just because there's money being waved in front of my face. I feel like I wouldn't feel good about myself walking away from something I did that I didn't like. With audio, it's great because I love it just as much, and I think they can tell that I get off on it. I love it.
Jennifer Tracy: Do these clients, the phone sex clients, come through the Reddit account also?
Speaker 1: They come through the Reddit. They've mostly been coming recently because I reached a certain amount of followers, and I wanted to thank them, because a lot of people were asking what I sound like. I won't show them what I totally look like so I figured I'll give you my voice. So I recorded a video saying thank you and just giving them this, what you're hearing right now. I got so many messages from people that just said, "I'm dying for you to say dirtier things to me personally and for me to masturbate while you talk to me," or whatever. I love doing that just as much, so let's do it.
Jennifer Tracy: How do you do that with ... You can't use your phone, obviously. Do you do it through Reddit?
Speaker 1: I will do it mainly through Snapchat because you can call people on Snapchat. I have a premium Snapchat that's under the same username. It's all under the same username everywhere.
Jennifer Tracy: Got it.
Speaker 1: So I have that through there and you just click on the phone call-
Jennifer Tracy: I see.
Speaker 1: ... and you can have a phone call. It's completely-
Jennifer Tracy: Anonymous.
Speaker 1: ... anonymous. You don't know my name, you don't know my phone number. Skype, I've moved away from that. I think in the very beginning, I was a little naive and just thought when you've talked to somebody and you don't totally want them to know your number, you go through Skype, and it's like so much of your information is a little too open on Skype, and it worried me. And so, I moved away from that and went into Snapchat.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow! It's fascinating. It's really interesting. It's something that I'm so grateful you came on to the show.
Speaker 1: Oh, thanks.
Jennifer Tracy: I just think we all need to talk about this so much more, because I mean I talk about it quite a bit here on the show and in life, and I'm writing a novel that is about a mom who becomes a dominatrix.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Jennifer Tracy: And so, obviously, for years, I've been doing research on it, and I just recently started doing personal research on it.
Speaker 1: That's fantastic.
Jennifer Tracy: It's so fascinating. What you learn about yourself and what I've learned about ... Even me, I'm very open. I mean I was a professional burlesque dancer, belly dancer. I'm a pole dancer.
Speaker 1: Girl, I love it.
Jennifer Tracy: My preconceived notions of sexuality and sensuality and limits and-
Speaker 1: I don't have those.
Jennifer Tracy: It's fascinating.
Speaker 1: I don't have limits.
Jennifer Tracy: No, let's talk about that. Do you have limits?
Speaker 1: I mean yes. Yeah, I do.
Jennifer Tracy: I mean you've just talked about some [crosstalk 00:52:06] for work.
Speaker 1: It's just for me, personally, I don't enjoy ... I'll be submissive in the right hands.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that's [crosstalk 00:52:16].
Speaker 1: If I feel trust and respect and that it's really just play, I'm fine with being submissive. But I don't want to be degraded or submissive with somebody that, on some level, thinks that I deserve to be treated that way. A lot of men, just in little levels, really think that they own you a little bit, that they can control that part of you and limit what you wear or how you ...
Speaker 1: I mean my ex-husband used to control what I went out in, that I couldn't wear certain things when I wasn't with him. If I went out with girlfriends, I had to dress a little more conservatively.
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: I'd never been that way. In a way, I almost attribute it to my mom, but mostly my dad. I would dress however I wanted growing up and in college. My dad never for a second ever said, "Go cover up. Put this on." He always just said, "You look fantastic."
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, that's so great.
Speaker 1: If I felt good about myself, I didn't have shame in that world. He was flirtatious with people in front of me. I would watch movies that were pretty sexual or sensual and movies with drag queens and all these things with my dad, and my dad loved all of it.
Jennifer Tracy: That's so great.
Speaker 1: It sounds strange saying that I loved that my dad was a sexual person, but it was a very freeing-
Jennifer Tracy: He modeled healthy sexuality for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was a very freeing way to just live, to be among somebody, that there was nothing wrong with it, they're just bodies, and pleasure and excitement and dressing sexy is fine. It doesn't indicate anything negative about you.
Speaker 1: I moved into my sexual exploration with that in mind. On top of that, I read Anais Nin and Bukowski and Henry Miller and John Fante and all of these beautifully dirty, salacious writers. So I always had just this big mind when it came to sex and fantasy and exploration and all of these things. There was zero shame until I got into my marriage.
Speaker 1: And so, coming out of that, there were so many parts of it that I just wanted to break free from and rediscover myself and ask myself the question in my 30s: what turns you on? What do you like? Because I lived an entire decade worrying about how to please somebody else and what turns them on and taking a backseat to my own exploration.
Speaker 1: Now being in my 30s, I can finally answer those questions. What turns me on? What excites me? I want to pursue those things and I'm not going to close the door on things like that. I'm finally going to go for it. So it feels good.
Speaker 1: Limits, though, yeah, I'm not totally into degradation. I think that's become really refreshing for me. A lot of men will message me, saying, "Do you want to be daddy's little slut?" My immediate answer is like, "Fuck you."
Jennifer Tracy: No. Yeah, fuck you.
Speaker 1: "No, I don't. Go find somebody else." It's not criticizing at all somebody who would enthusiastically say, "Yes, I do," because different things turn different people off.
Jennifer Tracy: But for you, that turns you off.
Speaker 1: For me, I'm just like I want to fight that person. It's almost this mama tiger thing that comes over me, like, "Ew, no." Those kinds of messages, I'm not into.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I recently have really discovered how dominant I can be, which is really fun and very freeing to give myself the permission to be a powerful woman and not to feel ashamed about it, and that can actually turn people on.
Jennifer Tracy: Very much so.
Speaker 1: Right. Obviously, in day-to-day life, if you're this pushy, dominant woman, you're a bitch or you're unyielding or you're uptight or this and that. But there are certain sexual spheres where it's exciting and it's empowering, and people are really drawn to that. And so, I've just started exploring that. I mean people will message me, calling me mommy, which isn't super exciting to me.
Jennifer Tracy: No, but it's a thing. It turns them on.
Speaker 1: But it's a thing, it turns them on, and it also opened the door in my mind to feeling like maybe I have more of a maternal dominance about me. It's a little bit more of a quiet power instead of a whip and this and that. I have power over people, but it's a little bit more nurturing, a little more quiet.
Speaker 1: I have worked that into what I do, which is really fun. I've played with a lot of people that, speaking of you, exploring dominatrix life as financial domination, which has been really interesting. Also, men that wear chastity belts.
Jennifer Tracy: When you say financial domination, what does that mean?
Speaker 1: A lot of ... Not a lot of, but there are some men that almost feel guilty to have the money that they have, and they're naturally inclined to be submissive.
Jennifer Tracy: Do you have their phone numbers?
Speaker 1: Yeah. After the episode, I'll text you. No, it's really interesting. It's this underlying feeling that they feel guilty for having this money-
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: ... but they also really like to be dominated. It's this beautiful combination where-
Jennifer Tracy: Do you tell them what to spend their money on? How do you dominate them financially?
Speaker 1: I haven't totally gotten into it yet. I've only just skimmed the service. But a good friend of mine that also posts on there has been killing it on there. I mean she will message them and basically say, "I'm bored. Send me money." That's it.
Jennifer Tracy: Girl.
Speaker 1: They'll just say, "Yes, mistress," and send her whatever amount.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, my God. That is so-
Speaker 1: Or she'll just send them a link to a lingerie set and say, "I really want this and you're going to buy this for me."
Jennifer Tracy: These are men that have never met her, don't know what she looks like.
Speaker 1: Never met ... Well, I mean, yeah, they know what her lips down look like.
Jennifer Tracy: Well, yeah, but ... Yeah.
Speaker 1: But yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: Financial domination.
Speaker 1: Financial domination. Mine is more ... And I went to school for journalism, so obviously I love words. I think they're so delicious and so powerful. And so, I have a way with them if I want to. Some men will message me just saying that they're wearing a chastity belt, that they have been wearing it for days. They haven't been able to pleasure themselves and that they think I'm the perfect person to finally let them release. I take advantage of that and I'll message them back. I'll say, "You don't deserve to release yet." I said, "I won't have my time wasted unless you pay me." Immediately, they just go like, "Yes, ma'am."
Jennifer Tracy: Then there's a ping in your phone and it's your PayPal account.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's incredible.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's fun and it's playful. Honestly, they love it. I don't think I could also ever do it if I knew that I was really hurting somebody, if I was making them feel bad.
Jennifer Tracy: I was just going to say it's not hurting anybody. It's just people having fun and exploring themselves.
Speaker 1: It's playful. Just as much as I would do that for somebody that I'm dating if I figured out that that's something that really turned them on, just as much as I would want them to place importance on my turn on, on my desires, of course, I'll do that for you.
Speaker 1: There's no place for judgment in the bedroom, in my opinion. That's when people start hiding things and feeling shame, or they don't want to show that part of themselves to you and they start feeling disgusted in themselves. I don't ever want anyone to feel that way.
Speaker 1: A lot of these people get personal with me, too. They'll tell me that they've tried to play that way with their wives or their partners, and they're disgusted with them and they don't want to do that or they haven't had sex with them in over a year. They're revealing very personal, very dark parts of themselves that they are ashamed of.
Speaker 1: And so, I get a lot of pleasure and joy out of knowing that I've given them a little bit of time in their day to let them know it's fine and it's also fun. If you want to explore it, I'm here for you to do that for a fee. But ...
Jennifer Tracy: Life is short, man.
Speaker 1: Life is short. I love getting to know people. That's probably been the best part of it, is the human aspect of it. It's what makes people tick. I mean I've asked almost everyone that buy socks and underwear from me, "What was the origin story for this? What turned you on? Why I did that for you?"
Jennifer Tracy: Give me one origin story.
Speaker 1: There was one guy that said, "My older sister would have friends over all the time, and they would take their shoes and socks off when they got in the door. I would find myself smelling them."
Jennifer Tracy: Wow!
Speaker 1: And that they would all have individual scents. He said, "For whatever reason, there was something very animal about it," and he said it's almost like a smell that they didn't want you to smell because people consider it to be embarrassing. It's not like you're putting perfume on. It's your socks. And so, he felt like-
Jennifer Tracy: Gosh, there's something so ... Yeah.
Speaker 1: ... it was this very honest moment where he got to really smell this person. I just said that that makes so much sense. I mean-
Jennifer Tracy: Wow! That is so ...
Speaker 1: ... it's not my thing, but I get it.
Jennifer Tracy: ... innocent and sweet. I could just picture this little boy just figuring out that he has these sexual urges or whatever.
Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. Now he buys my pedicures.
Jennifer Tracy: Good for him.
Speaker 1: Good for him.
Jennifer Tracy: Good for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: You're amazing.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: I'm so honored to know you.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me.
Jennifer Tracy: Really, truly. We've come to the time where I'm going to ask you three questions I ask every guest and then a little lightning round of questions.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Jennifer Tracy: What do you think about when you hear the word "love"?
Speaker 1: My family.
Jennifer Tracy: If you could live anywhere in the world other than where you're living now, where would you live?
Speaker 1: Seattle.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Jennifer Tracy: How do you define serenity?
Speaker 1: Just having room to be myself every day, whatever that means.
Jennifer Tracy: I think you found it.
Speaker 1: I think so. I really do.
Jennifer Tracy: Okay, lightning round of questions.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Jennifer Tracy: Fireside or oceanside?
Speaker 1: Oceanside.
Jennifer Tracy: Favorite junk food?
Speaker 1: Twizzlers.
Jennifer Tracy: Do you like theme parks?
Speaker 1: Yes.
Jennifer Tracy: What's your favorite one?
Speaker 1: Six Flags, bitch.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh, yeah. I like the, "Six Flags, bitch." I love it. I love that.
Speaker 1: Love it.
Jennifer Tracy: My son says biatch.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Jennifer Tracy: He's like, "Come on, biatch." I'm like, "Okay."
Speaker 1: It's kind of cool, though.
Jennifer Tracy: It's so funny. Daytime sex or nighttime sex?
Speaker 1: Oh, nighttime or early morning.
Jennifer Tracy: Yes, I feel that.
Speaker 1: Which is basically the same thing.
Jennifer Tracy: Shower or bathtub?
Speaker 1: Shower.
Jennifer Tracy: On a scale of one to 10, how good are you at making lasagna?
Speaker 1: Two.
Jennifer Tracy: What's your biggest pet peeve?
Speaker 1: Chewing with one's mouth open, audible chewing.
Jennifer Tracy: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, thank you.
Jennifer Tracy: Superpower choice: invisibility, ability to fly, or super strength?
Speaker 1: Ability to fly.
Jennifer Tracy: Would you rather have a cat tail or cat ears?
Speaker 1: Cat tail.
Jennifer Tracy: What was the name of your first pet?
Speaker 1: It was Max.
Jennifer Tracy: What was the name of the street you grew up on?
Speaker 1: Amesbury.
Jennifer Tracy: Oh. So your porn name, sorry, is Max Amesbury.
Speaker 1: Oh, wow!
Jennifer Tracy: Not that you need a porn name because you already have a name somewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you would like it.
Jennifer Tracy: Thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
Jennifer Tracy: You're amazing. Thanks so much for listening, guys. I really hope you enjoyed my conversation with my first anonymous MILF on the show. I know I did. Stay tuned next week, or tune in next week. Stay tuned. I mean just always stay tuned because you never know what I'm going to be up to.
Jennifer Tracy: But tune in next week for my conversation with Jules Blaine Davis. Jules has actually been on the show before. Jules is a kitchen healer and just a badass. I just love her so much. Her story is incredible and it's deepened ... She's been through a lot in the last year since she was on the show. And so, we decided, "Hey, let's share this." She's a warrior.
Jennifer Tracy: So tune in for that. Remember to go to The Growing Candle with the discount code MILF10 for a 10% discount. I'll talk to you guys next week. I love you. Keep going.